Crafting Specialization

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by mass, Sep 9, 2018.

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  1. mass

    mass Avatar

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    In the last live stream I heard talk of crafting specializations. The Devs suggested one specialization per character. I've seen this discussed numerous times in the forums and it seems like the outcome of this type of specialization is an army of alts that ultimately circumvents the intended purpose, which is enforcing interdependence of players for crafting.

    Is there any way that crafting specialization can be effective for it's intended purpose? If not, isn't this a major quality of life hassle that's being introduced?

    I didn't mind combat specializations so much as it still left us with lots of versatility. But I'm pretty sure the crafting specialization will just cause me to create a "guild of one" with all the specializations accounted for.

    Edit: I suppose I should add what I'd rather see as a solution.

    Don't force a one time selection of specialization. Simply make crafting level a 'soft cap' type of incentive for specialization.

    That is: 1. Overhaul recipes to include a broad range of crafting level requirements, including things that require GM, a handful of things that require 120, a few special things that require more.

    2. Increase control of selection of masterworks and enchants with crafting level all the way through 120 and beyond.

    This way you can do everything, but you are heavily incentivized not to do everything and this type of system can't be circumvented by creating alts.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
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  2. nonaware

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    it really just depends on how they do it and what it means to choose to specialize. is there a penalty for things you don't spec into or is it only a boost to your spec. do you get special things in loot from your spec. a special proc on crafted gear.

    I know they mentioned maybe at a high level getting special mats from dragon butchering if you were skilled enough when talking about fishing bait.

    we can only wait and see.

    but it could easily turn out as you say an army of alts.
     
  3. mass

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    From what I heard on the live stream, they intend to give players who specialize more control over choosing enchants/masterworks on equipment. I don't even know if gathering and refining will get specializations.
     
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  4. amarious

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    Personally I'd really like to see specializations for refining, gathering and production (as well as combat, magic and strategy but that's for another thread)

    But you are right, we could just all rely on a crap ton of alts. One thing that could be a pain is that producer xp is hard to get, less so since perma dbl xp.

    I think if they super centralize the crafting specializations it would work well.
     
  5. mass

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    Yeah, with double xp and a ton of resources (which any serious crafter has ;)) if you are only looking to level up one thing in an alt, I could see it going relatively quickly. I think it would actually take longer to get your main to 120 in all skills than to get a bunch of alts to GM in one specialization. It could actually be potentially easier to be self-sufficient going the specialization route than the soft cap route.
     
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  6. amarious

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    I didn't think of that and I agree, it could be a lot easier.
     
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  7. Micmatty

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    Hmm I don't agree with that, it would take the same amount of xp to get to 120 no matter who you do it on? I'd say it would take longer on alts cause you'd have to log out of the game to log into your new alt which would take extra time. Then on the new alt you would have to Farm mats but you are a fresh char mobs would eat you up unless you farm a bunch on your main but that still brings up the issue of my other point logging in and out would increase the time when you could just be leveling your main. That's what I think anyways tho I could be wrong who knows.
     
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  8. kaeshiva

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    Interesting thing, crafting specializations.
    This is one of the 'advancements' that I actually am not sure I really agree with.
    Its the whole "classless game becoming classed" thing again, where it will be pointless to level non-specialized crafts and suffer the RNG.
    Will it be good for the economy? Maybe. Maybe not.
    I've already got an alt account with enough producer level to 120 everything in a "specialized" trades and I'm sure others are in the same boat. All this change is going to do is force me to log on and off and look at more load screens to get things done. I don't think its necessary.

    I'd RATHER see specialization as a 'soft' requirement - IE, a high cost skill that at a certain threshold unlocks "no more rng." The cost should be prohibitive enough that most avatars aren't going to level more than one of them. But I don't think it should be exlusive, there's no real benefit to making it so, because its so easy to circumvent with alts.

    If we look at craft xp vs. adv. xp, and their relative acquisition rates, crafting only advances - in absolute best case - about 1/4th as fast as adventuring. Based on that if you added specialization as an 8-million-to-GM skill (instead of 24m as with adventuring specialization), that's a big enough chunk of XP to really encourage people to focus.

    People are already specializing anyway - when you start pushing producer skills to the costly lvl 130+ thresholds, you're a specialist. I'm producer level 105 and I've only done this in a single tree. I haven't touched blacksmith at all, my husband does that.

    I just don't think exclusivity is going to solve the problem, its only going to add more problems. At the least I'd suggest that two specializations are necessary as with adventuring, as you need both masterworks AND enchants to make a piece of good gear. Of course this means everyone and their dog would take enchanting as 1 of their 2 options if they wanted to do anything related to gearcrafting. Which kind of defeats the entire purpose.

    And really, what about harvesting? Refining?

    Do we really want people to feel like they have to take harvesting on their main character they actually play, and have an army of specialized alts for the rest? This seems a giant step backward on the quality of life path.

    For me personally, the MAIN APPEAL of Sota has always been NO RESTRICTIONS to what you can do. The adventurer specializations was already a kick in the teeth in a lot of ways toward that freedom, but you still have enough versatility to use other skills. If the selling point of specialisation is "RNG" vs "No RNG" non-specialized gearcrafting becomes 100% utterly pointless.

    I think we need to take a step back and rethink the specialization limit. I'd say make it an xp-hog passive but let it all be done on one character - the xphogginess of it will create a choice situation, but the lack of limits allows people to really develop the crafting side of their character if that's what they want to do. I don't see what the limit actually adds here except encouraging alts.

    And well, my army of alts is ready if this goes ahead. Is yours?
     
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  9. mass

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    One point I probably didn't make clear is that they implied you would only need the specializations to GM for them to be effective. So my comparison is between leveling stuff to GM (their proposed way of specialization) and leveling stuff past GM on a single character (my proposed way of encouraging specialization).

    You can get pretty good xp by crafting some things now. If you have the resources, you can create an alt, teleport him to your crafting bench, and level him up with a a few dozen recipes.
     
  10. Kain Darkmoor

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    My only request right now:

    If specialization means we get to choose what bonus we get, please make it so a piece of equipment can only benefit from one type of specialization.

    I don't want to have to make a bunch of alts to grind up different specializations to compete with those who certainly will.
     
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  11. Curt

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    The kind of specialisation I have suggested in the past is to simply count how many times you used each recipe and give a bonus depending on that amount.
    So two people with the same skill one that done 10 iron long swords and one that has done 100
    So would the one that done the 100 have a better chance to create a iron long sword.

    During the hangout it sounded like you could specialise in one of
    • blacksmithing - making it easier to get the masterwork option you want
    • carpentry - making it easier to get the masterwork option you want
    • tailoring - making it easier to get the masterwork option you want
    • alchemy - making it easier to make the enchant you want
    I may have misunderstood but to me it looks like only 4 choices. I would prefer.

    • blacksmithing - blade weapons - masterwork
    • blacksmithing - blade weapons - enchant
    • blacksmithing - plate armour - masterwork
    • blacksmithing - plate armour - enchant
    • blacksmithing - chain armour - masterwork
    • blacksmithing - chain armour - enchant
    • blacksmithing - shield - masterwork
    • blacksmithing - shield - enchant
    And similar for carpentry and tailoring
     
  12. mass

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    That would be an army of alts indeed :)
     
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  13. Nib

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    I would like to see 2 specializations like the combat system. A good piece of gear is enchanted and master worked.
     
  14. Spungwa

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    As i have said in other posts, i disagree with crafting specialisation being a necessity to compete.

    Picking your effects make non specialists useless, for gear at least. Non stat-ed items it make not difference.

    As shim said, we are already at a point that people are specialising, it just is not seen in the economy. This is not a crafting problem but an economy problem. High level crafting is sooo expensive that the market is not big enough for the demand to make the price high enough to do it commercially.

    I look at the people that do, and i think well, I am not over impressed with what they make.

    We are far enough in the game that is you want to be a very good crafting you need to be hitting 130 in the 2 relevant MW or ENC skills. That is huge XP investment, Remember every 7 level of a skill you are putting about the same amount of XP in that you put in to go from zero to that 7 level below.

    I'm an OK leather MWer, have 117 tailoring masterwork and 118 masterwork leather armour.
    I decided early that i need to specialise as pushing those skills does mean i make better gear, rather than making all gear at mediocre level. Being GM is now mediocre at best to my mind.

    But i don't sell gear as it does not sell for the type of profit that is worthwhile to my time. Certainly would never recoup the gold and time investment i have put in to get there. So i just do it for fun and make gear for guildies if they supply the materials.

    I would rather specialisation add a quality of life improvement rather than be a necessity. So like the efficiency skills in the refining tree, they are not needed to make the end results and do not effect the end result in any meaningful way other than to mean you can make it cheaper than someone without the efficiency skills.

    So i would be happy if specialisation increase your chance of exceptions, so it is not impossible to get exceptions without it, but with it you will "waste" less pieces on average to get them. Or other things that meant you made it cheaper rather than better or just quality of life improvements for crafter, like faster construction time.


    Regards
    Spung
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  15. Spungwa

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    Note, i'm not really pro or against the removal of RNG from crafting. I played Archeage the RNG there on crafting there is insane compared to this game, with PTW to boot with cash shop gems to increase your chances in RNG. One of the reasons i left, the PTW not RNG.

    As i have said in other posts, i am pro, if we keep RNG, the number of options from the RNG being proportional to the number of options available. This would at least balance the differences between the different armours and weapons in the amount of tries you need to do to get exactly what you want. Again though i would not want this tied to specialisation else again specialisation becomes a necessarily to compete.



    Spung
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  16. Dyonisys

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    Just need help for this. I won't spec with alts... every guild member just focus on one tree of crafting so we help each other... that's the point of this game having a community and helping each other. I'll get up blacksmith spec if you ever need ;)
     
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  17. mass

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    You can still play that way with a soft cap system, and get a good advantage from it. Forcing you to select one specialization per character for those who prefer to "economic" dependent play instead of "social" dependent play just forces us to level multiple characters increasing hassle. I think the major issue with their proposed system is that it won't result in the outcome they're looking for; that is: getting people to be more dependent on other players.
     
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  18. Lifedragn

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    I would still rather see Producer skills and Adventurer skills be counted together. You get one XP pool to use. Your producer skills count toward how much decay you pay on death. You have TWO specializations. If you want to put one or both into crafting, that means you sacrifice an adventure specialization.
     
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  19. xadoor

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    Perhaps screw specialization. Just making getting crafting skills to 120, 130, 140, 150, 160 matter. Why can I create dragon food the first day I'm cooking? Why is a masterwork by a 130 almost the same as an 80? There needs to be a reason that matters to go higher.
     
  20. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

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    I think something like Kain mentioned would make the most sense. that only allow 1 specialization skill to be applied anything else would be random. I was debating this when I heard seeing I have 3 schools I GM currently. My first thought was ok I will get rid of two of them and move them into alts so I could have all 3 with ability to choose. I know with enough time I could do it for sure. Then I thought it would be better for me to partner up with another person instead to make gear so we can maximize it.

    The best solution though I think would be what Kain mentioned this way it other crafters would benefit vs a one man crafter.
     
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