Crafting System Revision

Discussion in 'Crafting & Gathering' started by Browncoat Jayson, Jul 13, 2019.

  1. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    There is a lot of discussion, without a lot of details, about what types of revisions to the crafting system will "fix" what is perceived as broken. Even thoughts about what exactly is "broken" vary greatly. For the most part, it seems that the developers want to keep RNG in order to preserve rarity, so the economy does not immediately implode, while players hate not being able to predictably create a given item.

    However, I don't feel that these two issues are necessarily opposed. I'm going to suggest ways to revise the crafting system, without a lot of additional systems, to try to meet both of these viewpoints.

    Base Crafting
    For the most part, the base crafting system is quite good. It is skill based, with skill requirements rising to create more powerful items. There are a couple failures here that could be easily rectified, and indeed some are already in process.

    Cooking needs to be fleshed out, as it is not a full school yet. Add subskills of Brewing, Meat, Fish, and Vegetarian, and have each increase chance and yield of specific types of craftables.

    Components
    First, components have traditionally only been available by crafting. In Release 47, this was expanded to include "tier three" components that could be gathered by salvaging, including Elven components and the rare Torc'Dawl's pieces, and in R48 to include Bandit, Heavy, and Sturdy components. In Release 67, "tier one" components (those from store-bought recipes) began appearing as part of regular drops.

    While this is great for providing a non-crafting progression, salvaging these items is exceedingly rare and runs into the one systems limitation of salvaging: patterns, components, and standard scrap cannot happen simultaneously. This needs to be fixed for this to have any real meaning.

    Recipes
    I think the only other failure of this system is that higher tier recipes are only available from Supply Bundles, which means they are level and RNG gated. Getting a specific recipe you want is entirely dependent on luck, or the rare and pricy secondary player market.

    There are a couple things that might help with this. One would be to include recipes in the salvage table, if your crafting skill is high enough to learn it. Thus, if you salvaged a Meteoric Iron Longsword, you might have a chance at a Recipe: Meteoric Iron Longsword Blade.

    Another would be to make critical success on component crafting have a small chance to give you a higher tier version of the same recipe. So having an exceptional roll when crafting a Copper Longsword Blade might also give you access to that Recipe: Meteoric Iron Longsword Blade.

    The chance for this should be fairly small, and may require an adjustment to how often they drop in Supply Bundles to keep some degree of rarity; however, currently it seems that these recipes are not found often enough.

    Masterworking
    The player's issue with crafting mostly comes with Masterworking, and later with Enchantment. Both of these systems are very dependent upon RNG to keep very powerful items rare. However, they are skill-based in that the available effects that can be applied and your chance of success are entirely dependent on what skills you have leveled. Players complain mostly in that they have no real control over what effects they get on a given item, and adding new effects increases the randomness so you have less control.

    The way to keep both rarity and add control is to separate the Masterwork (and Enchanting) process from the item being created. In effect, you would be creating another set of components that could be applied to a given item after base crafting is complete. Because their creation does not depend on a base item, it would be necessary to break the "Masterwork Upgrade" recipes into multiple variations, based on what they could apply to. For example, Masterwork Blacksmithing Upgrade would be broken into Masterwork Shield Upgrade, Masterwork Chain Armor Upgrade, Masterwork Plate Armor Upgrade, and Masterwork Blade Weapon Upgrade.

    The crafting process would be like any other recipe, with a fixed set of components. To keep relative parity, let's say the Masterwork Blade Weapon Upgrade requires two iron or copper ingots, five silver ingots, and two chunks of coal. On success, you get the current effect selection window, where you can choose which Masterwork option you want to add. Let's say you pick Whirling Blades Power. You end up with a new item Metal Blade Weapon Components of Whirling Blades Power +3. Each component would thus show not only the type of item it can be applied to, but also what the "plus" it will add to the item; mouseover should show the durability cost and effect. Some effects will of course add limitations; the move rate benefit limits armor pieces to the feet, so this should be reflected in the name "Metal Plate Boot Component...".

    Applying a component is just another combine, say in this case it is Apply Blacksmithing Upgrade that requires a base item, the component to be applied, and some coal. Here, the chance of success will depend on both your skill, and the "plus" of the component being added. Let's say the current chance of success is 95%/85%/48%/15%, which appears to be the current high-tier GM numbers. To add a +3 component, you would have a 48% chance of success. You are still limited by item durability.

    Enchanting
    Enchanting would be very similar to Masterworking; the recipes would be broken down into Enchant Weapon, Enchant Armor, and Enchant Jewelry, and each would have an optional gem component. Including the gem would add effects, but require a socked gem or jewel to apply it to.

    For example, using Enchant Weapon requires five gold ingots and ten mandrake root, and you can optionally include a gem, so you put in a ruby. You have a chance to create a Enchanted Two-handed Blade Sigil of Ignite +4, but requires that you apply it to a Two-handed Bladed Weapon with socketed sorcery gem(s).

    One additional enchanting recipe that is necessary is Enchant Repair Kit, which is simply any of the different repair kits, two gold ingots, and five mandrake root. The resulting Enchanted Repair Kit - Blacksmithing (or Carpentry, Tailoring, or Tool) will be discussed in the Repair section.

    In Alchemy, there needs to be a Jewelry Enchantment skill just to add options to those items, which are severely underpowered.

    Salvage
    As noted in components, salvage needs an update to be able to draw from multiple loot bundles, depending on the item. The base salvage for scrap should always be present, any pattern should be a separate check, and if the item includes components, yet another.

    Further, salvaging items that have been enchanted or masterworked should be a viable way to recover some of your effort. In addition to possibly recovering components, you should recover a small number of gold or silver scrap for each "plus" of enchanting or masterwork on the item. These can be used to create new ingots.

    Repair
    The repair skills are unfortunately secondary in the market, as they cannot match what even unskilled players can do using Crowns. I think this skill could easily be expanded to make a viable alternative, without infringing entirely on the game's income.

    The current system for field and minor repairs are adequate. I'd like to see some tweaks to how much durability is restored, especially to have it influenced by player skill, but this is a very minor part of the process.

    First, rename the current Repair Item (Major) recipe to Repair Item (Crown), or (Premium). This is really outside of the normal range of crafting.

    Then, add a new Repair Item (Major) recipe that requires an Enchanted Repair Kit. This recipe restores some of the maximum durability based on the skill of the craftsman, as well as all of the current durability. This provides an option other than Crowns to continue utilizing gear, but does not do so as efficiently (more repairs needed to bring back to full durability, which results in more major repairs to the item, thus decreasing the amount returned by each repair).

    Finally, an option to repair failures in Enchanting/Masterworking would be a huge addition to high-end crafting. This Repair Masterwork recipe would require an Enchanted Repair Kit, five silver ingots, and ten fuel (i.e., coal for Blacksmithing). If successful, it removes the "failed" effect, returning the max durability to the item and freeing up the slot for another effect to be applied. A Repair Enchantment recipe would be the same, but with gold ingots and ten mandrake root.

    Specialization
    The current suggestion for Specialization is the addition of new effects to the Masterwork and/or Enchantment pool, and the option to reroll the effect if you don't want any of the current options. I think those are fine; however, like combat specialization, this should affect all of the skills in the tree rather than just one.

    For example, in the Blacksmithing skill tree we have the base Blacksmithing skill, then Repair, Salvage, and Masterwork, with subskills of Masterwork Blade Weapon, Masterwork Chain Armor, Masterwork Plate Armor, and Masterwork Shield. Each of these should gain some benefit from specialization.

    For base proficiency, I think the best specialization effect is increasing the rate of exceptional items being produced. This could be a separate check from the standard crafting exceptional, which does not provide the extra crafting experience, if that is a limitation. Specialists should have a very good chance to produce an exceptional item, with extra durability.

    Salvage should increase the chance of returning components, increase the amount of scraps for a standard salvage, and increase the chance for silver or gold scraps, based on the specialization skill.

    Base masterwork should get the reroll mechanic as a benefit of specialization. Each of the subskills is where the additional options should be added, so each can gain specific benefits.

    Specialization should increase gains for most consumable recipes; potions, scrolls, food, and drink can provide more items for a success. This could be used even if the item received is not a duplicate of the item created; such as creating a Tuna Steak and also getting a couple Tuna Skewers.

    The effect for specialization on decoration items is more difficult. Ideally, all deco items should be moved to the Pattern system, where there is a base item and each of the craftables are just pattern skins that can be applied to them. Then specialization can add additional patterns, or even turn the normal into a Eternal Pattern. Another possibility is that crafting a deco item that is dyable would be to have it come with rare dyes already applied; this might be the only way to get some exclusive dyes down the road.

    Affinity
    The last system that has been talked about for a long time, but as had no progress made, is the Item Affinity. In short, this was to be a system that they more you use an item, the better it becomes at a specific task. The example given was killing thousands of skeletons might have your sword gain the Undead Slayer affinity, which provides a small bonus damage against undead.

    We could utilize the current Totem system to accomplish the same thing, and add it to crafting. Currently, you can gather 100 essences, combine them into a totem using Smelting, and then place that totem in a dungeon. Why not just apply that same totem to a crafted item? So applying a Level 1 Lich Totem to a Iron Longsword would turn that into a Iron Undead Slayer Longsword, with a 110% Damage Versus Undead bonus. You could apply the next level of totem to this to increase it, and only one type of totem could be applied to a single item.

    Can we have an Obsidian Essense from obsidian creatures and cultists, to expand the system?

    This has the same type of benefits that were originally discussed, but utilizes the existing systems.
     
  2. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    @Chris @Bzus Not sure how this aligns with your plans.
     
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  3. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    So am I understanding this right, all deco would become one recipe "Deco Item", and then you apply for example "Rustic Chair" pattern to it?
     
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  4. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    No, it would work like other pattern-able furniture works now.

    For example, if you craft a Wooden Throne, you can use it as-is, or you can apply a pattern (like a Heraldry Eternal Pattern) to it.

    Right now, there are several different recipes that simply adjust other items. You can create a Large Cabinet and then using some more boards turn it into a Carved Oak Cabinet. The same with Small Cabinet and Carved Figured Cabinet. Why wouldn't Carved Oak Cabinet and Carved Figures Cabinet just be craftable patterns that are then applied to the Large Cabinet or Small Cabinet base items?
     
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  5. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    I think he means more like, one recipe for "wooden chair" (or just "chair") and then varieties of chair would be amde via patterns.
     
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  6. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    Yes, this basically. Cut down on the number of craftables, and increase the number of patterns that can be applied to them. It then becomes easy to change your deco just by applying a new set of patterns. And all of the existing Add-On/Crown Shop versions can be changed to give Eternal Patterns, which you can then swap out as needed.

    It seems that system has a lot more diversity than what we have now.
     
  7. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    And where do the crafted patterns come from?
     
  8. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    That would be the change necessary, if we pursue this direction. There are currently no crafted patterns, so we would need to replace those old recipes with ones that generate patterns. Just removing the base item from the recipe and changing the returns would be a good enough start.
     
  9. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    I have to admit, that sounds a lot clunkier than what we have now, with no advantage.
     
  10. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    I don't get it either.

    What's the point? It adds a layer of complexity, what is the gain?
     
  11. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    Its the same system we are already using, just done consistently. What we have now is a hodge-podge of systems, where adding something requires different functions depending on what you are working with.

    But that is NOT THE POINT OF THIS THREAD. I said "Ideally, all deco items should be moved to the Pattern system", but that is the only part I didn't actually get into as part of this discussion.

    If that is the only thing you have issue with, great!
     
  12. Bedawyn

    Bedawyn Avatar

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    Well, the pattern part is the easiest to respond to. I'm not thrilled with the way patterns are handled now, but I don't think this would be better.

    What I would rather see is yes, fewer base recipes for deco items. But then the output of the recipe depends on your skill and rolls. So for instance, instead of the current "Trunk" recipe either making nothing if you fail or the same fancy carved trunk whether you roll average or exceptional, if you roll an exceptional THEN you would get the fancy carved version; if you roll an average success, you get a simpler plain version; if you fail, you make the rough-hewn version that you can see in some peasant NPC houses. They all function the same, but look different based on your skill. Three items on the same recipe, but no fussing with patterns.

    Translating this to gear -- perhaps a failure would give you Ragged, Dirty or Rusty gear with less durability, while an exceptional would give you a more popular (but still not too fancy) version with more durability, but all three versions would have the same stats, since they use the same material. For refining, an exceptional creates the component while leaving you with an extra mat left over, while a failure gives you no item, no fuels, and takes one of your mats.

    This means refining more expensive materials would be risky (even for deco items, since you'd be using up mats on something that wasn't what you'd hoped for). People who can't afford the risk would probably wait to use those materials until their skill is higher (and chance of failure less). And there'd still be some element of RNG for those who like the "game" part of it.

    It wouldn't cut into crown shop sales, it would allow us more diversity of stuff with fewer recipes to keep track of, and it would let skill (presuming skill determines your chance of exceptional or failure) make a real difference even for deco-makers.
     
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  13. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    Ah, I see. I think the issue would be then either having to purchase patterns for things, or making patterns, which would be another new system grafted on.

    I do like making MW/ench "components" but I don't see the devs going for that, as it reduces the gold sinkiness of the current system by a pretty significant amount.
     
  14. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    Eeewwww, no. If I'm making deco, and it has no stats, there is no reason the outcome should be random in any way.
     
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  15. Bedawyn

    Bedawyn Avatar

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    The reason is so that skill and failures/exceptionals actually mean something for all of us, and not just for the combat-oriented folks.
     
  16. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    It also introduces the same RNG problem combat oriented folks experience. @Vladamir Begemot does well selling furniture, I doubt he could if the results of chairmaking were random. Other than a minimum skill to learn the recipe, skill shouldn't affect deco crafting.
     
  17. Rowell

    Rowell Avatar

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    Please, no RNG in deco crafting. I don't want to be making a Gothic Table, and end up with a Bookshelf.
     
  18. Bedawyn

    Bedawyn Avatar

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    That's not at all what I was describing. What I was describing was trying to make a table, and ending up with either a poorly made ugly table, a standard table, or a finely crafted pretty table, depending mainly on your skill level, mediated by a little RNG that the player could easily manage by not trying to complete recipes that they're not yet skilled enough to reliably handle.

    But this is Browncoat Jayson's thread, and as he said, the pattern idea was only a small part of it. I don't want to derail his thread any further.
     
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  19. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    I think this could be handled by patterns as well. Everyone, upon succeeding, would make the base table. A poorly made table could have a "worn" pattern already applied to it, so you'd have to do extra work to make it look good. A exceptional result could make both the base table and a "finely crafted" pattern to be applied to it. That is the power of the pattern system; one base component can have a better appearance depending on who is selling it.

    True. I'm happy to keep talking about ways this could be used, but I'd really like to see if we can help improve the changes to the crafting system before they shoehorn in rerolls and call it quits.
     
  20. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    How would one get those patterns, then? In some cases it's obvious (higher tier elves would drop elven patterns instead of recipes) but where would I find the pattern for a carved oak cabinet (or whatever it's called) that would normally be purchased as a recipe? Or is it your attention that recipes effectively become consumable patterns, so if I need to make ten carved oak cabinets, I need materials to craft 10 plain cabinets, plus the materials, fuels, and patterns to reshape ten tables?

    I think the biggest issue with shoddy/plain/fine furniture is that would require creating all those assets. It might be as "simple" as new texture maps, but that's a lot of furniture that would need new variations, and I suspect the manpower doesn't exist for that.