Death Decay Poll

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by oplek, Jun 21, 2017.

?

What's your opinion on skill/death decay?

  1. It's way too punishing, and all loss should be removed from death.

    38.6%
  2. I'm generally fine with the system, but perhaps lighten up on the punishment.

    4.6%
  3. I'm fine with the level of loss, but would rather it be done differently.

    5.0%
  4. I'm fine with the system.

    28.9%
  5. It isn't punishing enough. The loss should be greater.

    5.4%
  6. Crank it up! I am death incarnate.

    6.8%
  7. NEW: Some loss is fine, but the current type and level is excessive

    10.7%
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  1. fonsvitae

    fonsvitae Avatar

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    No offense taken; I was also surprised by the sudden jump in votes. It happens... and danke.

    An episodic scenario: one has reached the point where gaining in skill is no longer viable due to skill decay (i.e., no longer cost effective; it is not so far away and it will be a point reached for everyone given enough time) and there is still Episodes 2,3,4 & 5 to go. What then?

    What of all the xp content in those prospective episodes? One will certainly be able to enjoy them in any way seen fit, but no benefit from xp itself will be had because xp will no longer have anything useful to be channelled into; this is a flaw in how the current design deals w/ incentive: death decay has served us an infinite running after ones own tail in the guise of game design. Why then prop up an earned xp context/ environment at all?

    On the other hand, allowing for growth allows for variety in builds and approaches, something that can last through Episodes 2 through 5 and beyond (keep in mind that it takes decades of playing 15+ hours daily to raise a single skill to 200; keep also in mind that the combat bar makes it so whatever gains one does achieve, we are all reasonably equalized in contribution to a given situation).

    Vertraue die Mützen, die wir haben und uns verabschieden, um zu zerfallen
     
  2. Solazur

    Solazur Avatar

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    MInd you.. that's kind of like saying because you tok language i school you shouldn't be allowed to study math or history.
     
  3. Grave Dragon

    Grave Dragon Avatar

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    Its a fluid concept, so there would be room for some flexibility in design. For example, one option is to allow players to still invest skill points into all trees, just not all trees would be accessible at all times, you'd have to switch them while in a safe zone and out of combat. "Managing Your Build" so to speak.

    Another option would be to limit non primary trees to lower skill levels so you could maintain a baseline efficiency in those secondary skills while only being able to GM in your primary trees to prevent being a master of all.
     
  4. Stundorn

    Stundorn Avatar

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    Na it's more like:

    if you choose to be a fire and an ice mage then yes you can, but never will be a master in either one of them - if you want to master Ice or Fire, dismiss the opposite.
    Maybe like if you choose to be the worlds top biochemist you may not be the worlds fastest runner at the same time, because becoming one or the other need a huge investment of time, passion, disciplin...

    What we need for beeing a grandmaster of every school in SotA is just time and will to grind.

    I still think a Fantasy Roleplaying World don't need more than one Super Hero Avatar - so fine for offline SP, but all this is misplaced for online modes.

    the idea is not that bad, because it would not mean that they have to take already achieved things away from players, however they achieved it, but grant us, that if one choose from lets say maybe 5 trees/ schools gets nothing from the other ones - but then we have a problem, because 3 schools will ever be vital - Sun - Intelligence , Air - Dexterty and Earth - Strength
    So these three are vital to every build then.

    i prefer to have a cap that dont limit you choosing from all trees, but limit you in skills you can have in total, so build a class from all the options and level as high as you can, regarding diminishing returns and death decay.
     
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  5. Jaanelle DeJure

    Jaanelle DeJure Avatar

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    It appears the numbers have been changing too quickly for any of us to call it. Here's the current snapshot:


    1. It's way too punishing, and all loss should be removed from death.
      96 vote(s)
      38.4%

    2. I'm generally fine with the system, but perhaps lighten up on the punishment.
      8 vote(s)
      3.2%

    3. I'm fine with the level of loss, but would rather it be done differently.
      15 vote(s)
      6.0%
    4. *
      I'm fine with the system.
      70 vote(s)
      28.0%

    5. It isn't punishing enough. The loss should be greater.
      15 vote(s)
      6.0%

    6. Crank it up! I am death incarnate.
      18 vote(s)
      7.2%

    7. NEW: Some loss is fine, but the current type and level is excessive
      28 vote(s)
      11.2%
    The total of all the options where the word "fine" occurs: 48.4% This informal, unofficial, and unscientific poll continues to demonstrate that the majority of people are either "mostly fine" with the current system, or actually think it should be tougher.

    It is actually 61.6% "mostly fine or turn it up" and 38.4% "it's way too punishing"

    I hope we can see how the choices are laid out also makes it a bit difficult to discern the actuality of the situation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
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  6. Grave Dragon

    Grave Dragon Avatar

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    I agree there, Id prefer having all trees available but having to choose a limited number of primary and secondaries as well. The stat inates for Intelligence, Dex and Strength would be better off seperated from skill schools and the XP requirement increased to raise them as independent attributes.
     
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  7. Burzmali

    Burzmali Avatar

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    Interesting read. I read that 1, 3 and 7 think that the current design, XP loss on death, is bad for a total of 55.6% against and 37.2% for, with the balance hoping for a different game.
     
  8. MrBlight

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    Hahaha i have to say i hate the way this survey is done as i read it differently I say if u break it down to yes / no on the current decay system..
    1 - no.
    2 - yes
    3 - (i tolerate it tho i want something differnt ) so no.
    4 - yes
    5 - Yes
    6 - Yes
    7 - pretty much same as 3 .. .. As i hate the current decay system, And i voted for 7.. AS im all for a penalty on death, but not an EXP drain ? so ...
    with the way i read it..

    55% say No.
    45% say yes =P


    Or reality is here.
    17% Want something different.
    41% like it.
    42% dont like it
    (give or take)

    Lol i suppose its how you interpret the poll.

    Either way.. IMO as i wrote before.. as people have already QUIT / Stopped / Been turned off from the current system.. i would argue that thats more tehn enough people wanting something differnt to justify it being here. Since i know 2 players personally that left with decay being the main concern, and having about 5-6 people i cant convince to play in first place, with decay being a huge part of that reason.. i mean.. i get it.. we are surveying the people HERE... but this unappeal should be taken into account. And even if its NOT.. Striving for a 50/50 approval rating of a feature in a game is pretty piss poor =P lol

    One thing is, the poll shoulda/coulda been worded better =P
     
  9. Jaanelle DeJure

    Jaanelle DeJure Avatar

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    Exactly! And we're all going to tend to interpret it according to our own biases. Myself included.

    Here's where I generally stand on this. If somebody like @kaeshiva quit and said... hey guys here are some actual stats... this is what happened to me I died and it set me back a whole week! In that type of situation, I would totally back a player like that up.

    Now if somebody quits because... *rage rage* I HATE this idea. It is WRONG. No, I DON'T want to look at any numbers. I DEMAND that SotA become a theme park game where there is NEVER any risk of losing anything. Well then I have a harder time supporting that sort of situation because it just seems childish and closed-minded to me.

    So... to your point. It is important to consider how many people have actually quit over this. But the how and the why of it matters too.

    Maybe we should do another poll?! (Haha no I'm kidding.) :D
     
  10. Jaanelle DeJure

    Jaanelle DeJure Avatar

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    I can see how you might read it that way too. See above response to @MrBlight for more details. :)
     
  11. Stundorn

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    but people also left for other things too - pvp, loot, combat system, focus nerf, whatever reason it is - yes we want changes, or completion or adjusting of intended gamemechanics?
    I still think specializaton need to become vital early not pass 100 or 120.

    Death Decay is maybe the wrong mechanic to do this, but still... death= significant = i like it - and thats while i am a casual maybe suffer the most of it - not actually, but if i grow further.
    Cause i achieve these amount of xp to get a spell to 100 over many month if not years while others do it faster.
    So rebuilding, recatching xp takes me also longer than others.

    its a hard decision to the devs - but i think it's really cool to have it - there wasn't much games where you could loose levels, but i allways prefered them over other games, where you didnt care about a death, because i was just a downtime/ debuff over time or nothing at all.
    XP Loss is no downtime to me, i have to figure things out to better not die again, i have to make a decision of try again or leave, i have to be active and fighting to recatch the xp and i am not punished the way i cannot do things proper for a while (debuff), but instead have to do better in what i was doing.
     
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  12. Solazur

    Solazur Avatar

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    was just looking at the seedinvest stuff...we're now "up" to ~ 250 votes...out of 65,000 accounts that have made financial contribution to the game....one could toy with those numbers all day. There is no way for us ofc to know how many actual people are represented by that 65k but we could be generous in assumptions and say (for the sake of "why not?") that each contributing person has 6 accounts which would be close to 11,000 real people.

    Speaking generally... this "poll" is interesting for entertainment I suppose...but...for better or for worse... I think it's safe to say no matter how loud the 1% yells, we're gonna have decay. Some will quit and of those some will come bak. Some will be unable to "let it go" and faux quit only to spend their remaining days raging on reddit. The bulk of people will play the game.. as it grows and I'd bet my favorite toy that no matter how decay starts off it'll be tweaked but.. we will always have it. End of Story. :)
     
  13. Zapatos80

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    It makes sense that being specialized is harder to maintain, even from a roleplaying perspective. Think about hobbies you can take on for a few hours a week. After a couple months you can be pretty good at many things. But to take it to the next level, the same amount of gains will take a tremendous amount of time and effort. Seems fair to me.
     
  14. Jaanelle DeJure

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    I think that's a great example. I've been a "pretty decent" piano player for decades. If I really wanted to step up my game, there's no way I would have time to play SotA 10-20 hours a week, that's for sure!
     
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  15. Tsumo2

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    I have not voted yet as I can listen and empathize with multiple points of view. Today, it occurred to me that a problem with decay, from a behavioral point of view, is that it is pretty negatively reinforcing. People and rats tend to avoid such, and if such experience associates to the game itself ....
     
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  16. Tahru

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  17. MrBlight

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    *shrug*
    Theres 500 daily/active accounts in SOTA right now. Meaning that i could also say that of those 65,000 accounts that have made financial contribution, how many arnt playing and the decay mechanic how it is, is on their list of reasons?

    And if we want to say that because theres 250 votes here.. its pretty safe to assume thats 50% of their daily/active players. .. meaning that 25% of the players playing right now took the time to say * no i dont like this mechanic* in one way or another.
    I would hardly say thats the 1% yelling.
    Id even go so far as saying the 1% have more experience and should be listened to more then people who played house up till now. As it gives a good idea of where the rest of the player base will be, and how they will feel at that point.

    As .. in both threads that are going, numerous people have explained in detail about how the resistance to decay isnt just stemming from the top 1%, and that its a massive turn off to a large portion of the players in general.
    I can just as easily say that those 1% loud mouthed high level backers are the ones being resistant to it because they would rather play dress up. Theres not much to support my argument here.

    So...
    This Poll * Represents 50%? of the current active daily players, and is probably the closest thing we've seen to the actual support from the players still here for it.
    The idea that its only the 1% who thinks this decay is essentially BAD for the game in one form or another, is simply an unfounded claim. And comes off as using (whats becoming the go to * blame the 1%) ignorance instead of any valid reason in support of the topic.
    I agree some of the Reddit is over the top, but its now the.. what.. the 4th most traffic in the world site? And that maybe this community should stop taking an Us Vs Them approach, and realize that SOTA should be able to stand on its own to the public in places other then this forum where you can just mass report / delete / lock threads. ( The Devs clearly are starting to realize this, as the AMA they did was actually pretty damn successful IMO ).
    And considering Chris was talking on a whim about changing it to only effect online time and when your in a zone (even though he didnt do it) .. I would say thats pretty much a complete overhaul of the decay system.. So the idea it will always be here, isnt neccisarrily true. I see no reason why this mechanic is *locked in* over changing it to a penalty system or any of the other reccomendations. Some of the reccomendations to make it less terrible, are less work then he was originally proposing to do a few weeks ago.

    So.. End of Story? Doubt it... but productive post?
     
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  18. Solazur

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    @MrBlight

    just taking a blind stab in the dark here but I'll go out on a limb and assume you're on the "no decay" side of things. if that's a fair assumption...I'd then ask" what is your solution to the death "issue"?

    I'll admit my viewpoint was somewhat affected by the first online games I played back in the 90's. The 1st you probably never heard of although a shadow is still up after 22 years. The 2nd was Diablo 1 which everybody has at least heard of.

    I can't begin to count how many times I'd see a shoutout in that 1st game (global chat) or on ICQ looking for somebody who could make it to where they'd died to get their stuff ( can you do hell mode?) because otherwise they could kiss it all goodbye cuz DEATH!

    Back to that 1st game...When they went "live" lvl 100 was the top O the heap. If memory serves correctly.. you needed something like 10k XP per lvl.. but the ***** was you hit a place where you were only gonna get 4xp per kill max. Death cost you 1,000 xp AND....it was not uncommon to see your lvl roll back when you died and.. back to the grind for joo :)

    So I guess I've always expected death to mean something. LOrd knows this game needs a lil fear in it.

    Agree on Reddit.. but I'm sure you knew exactly what I meant.

    Peace
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
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  19. Lars vonDrachental

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    Isn’t that actually the model in most online games? You reach a point where your skill based progress stops…your skills are not getting stronger and you have to learn to effectively use the skills you have, buy/find/craft better gear or find a place in a powerful group to overcome new obstacles.
    As I finished the last of the three story quests last weekend I have to say that adventure level 70 should be sufficient to finish these quests for everyone. (I’m even weaker but after some tries everything was doable.)
    Does that mean I’m in end content…nowhere near. I think I have to be at least around level 100 to be not completely useless in ep1 end content group play and so it will take me round about another year to reach that point.
    In ep2 and with decay (or another mechanic) active it is possible that killing enemies could be more efficient and that would mean that you could raise your skills some levels till it’s stagnating again. Aside of hard caps of other games (e.g. fixed max level 80 for everyone in ep1, fixed max level 90 for everyone in ep2,…) this might be a try (or a first part of more to be announced mechanics) for a soft cap. Giving active avatars the possibility to be stronger than the casuals but not be too strong to have no challenges anymore as balancing will be made for the crowd of casuals.

    Actually I do not think this is the case. There is no variety in builds as far as I read about it. Nearly everyone is leveling everything and to be an all-rounder is the way to play the game simplest. I think it is most unlikely that you will meet a very active avatar with hundred millions of experience points who has just 5 GMs while he is focusing all his efforts into the fire skill tree.
    The only ones playing with variety in builds are as I see it the ones like Stundorn…roleplayers that takes the burden of specialization because an all-rounder playstyle do not fit their thinking about their avatars role in novia.
     
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  20. Stundorn

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    I'm not sure about that. There are a lot of acitve Forumusers who didn't play for month.

    And it was just approved by some highlevels here

    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...equest-a-working-type-of-a-soft-cap-to.93166/

    And they stated - specialisation comes in beyond 100 and GM means nothing and maybe we talk about spcialization comes in between 120-150 or even 150+ if some players made it further and further?

    And thats how it is inteneded??? @Lord British

    really? then i am maybe wrong here playing - because i would like to participate in alle aspects of the game and also PvP.
    But if the actual System is what they want it to be - i'm out of the screen to do that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
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