Death Losses while PVPing are suppose to be none.

But but peoples mindless mining time is way way WAAAY more valuable then my mindless killing time.

Make decay hit crafters, then lets see if its still a 50/50 love/hate for decay. ( ignoring the un known number of players its turne off already )

 

Let me be honest here and say first that I don't PVP much at all. I may occasionally get flagged from healing a member of my group or by entering a PVP zone... but I'm not really looking for PVP action when it happens.

Now, since XP cannot be earned via PVP, I don't believe that you should lose XP via PVP. It's not fair to incur decay from a PVP fight, period.

However, I don't think that simply being flagged for PVP should make you immune to decay either. If you are in a PVP zone and you fall to your death (whether it's from a bad jump on your part or if someone gusts you off a bridge) then you should still incur decay. Same as I would if I fell off a bridge while unflagged in a non-pvp zone. My feeling on this is that if you fell to your death, then it was not due to PVP. It was due to falling. You need to be more careful and not fight near a place where you can fall.

If you are getting decay from being killed by another player, then that definitely needs to be fixed though. And when I say killed by another player, I mean your chat log says you "have been slain by PVPPlayerName" and the skill used to kill you.

With PVP, you get an XP bonus for being flagged and in multiplayer zone. But, that bonus is given because of the "risk" in doing so. If simply flagging makes you exempt from decay (of any kind) then I think the amount of "risk" is greatly reduced. At that point, all you are worried about is your ego and possibly losing some gear or a body part. But if you don't want to lose them, you can just pay the gold instead. And let's face it, to anyone who is worried enough about losing decay, acquiring gold isn't really an issue for you since your high enough level to get it pretty easily when you need it.

Anyway, that's my take on this topic. I'm not a fan of decay in general, and I don't think a PVP encounter should give you decay. But at the same time, I don't think flagging should give you complete immunity either.

 

So decay for PVP would kill PVP but somehow helps bring meaning to a PVE death.

That's about as stupid as a Dev thinking Decay of earned EXP and skill loss is a good idea.

Turn Decay OFF for all....and let's call it a day.

 

I think what you all dont get is:

Devs have ( i hope so) a Vision of a RPG Environment where it is not about your math or effort/ reward thing, not about whats more efficient or if it is fair to loose xp in pvp because you dont get xp from pvp.

You die, you loose xp, point.
Good thing imho!

Not because of Balance, softcap or whatever, just because it's better and more meaningfull to not die than everything else.

 

That position is inconsistent with how it has been and still is being presented by DarkStarr and Chris in their communication with us.
If that was the case then the implementation would be different.
Instead the implementation and communication is consistent in that decay is to prevent power creep. Not an immersive RP feature.

 

Then they hopefully do a lot of more tweaks to prevent people doing what they are doing, even if this means, they stop playing.
I do not complain about SP offline - this mode to me is the mode players should choose for this.
But for MP its just bad.


edit: Maybe we should ask R.G. about his opinion ^^

 

But where does that vision lead????

Death is exp loss...
Resources for artifacts need Exp Loss to buy them..
You can pay for skills with your Exp..
Experience turns into just another commodity like gold that can not be traded from player to player.. although this is an interesting spin on a minecraft feature of building your exp to enhance items then losing it when you die, it is not a feature I think will do well to build and maintain a player base.

 

Oh. Apparently i got a suspension warning for being to argumentive.

Let me try agian.

Its only fair for this bad mechanic to effect everything. Make it hit crafters. Make it hit pvp. Everything.
I would love to see emotes and dancing destroy durability. And i want to see mining / fishing have a danger factor with a chance to make someone experiance decay. Its only fair.

If decays intended as a form of cap, should effect all aspects of skill gain or player progression.

Oh.
This is imo as i dont want to *argue* and upset anyone, or ill be reported and suspended. So.. im stating a fact.
The death tax is easily the most hated feature in this game. It turns off players old and new.

Id challenge the points of others who think othrrwise with simple facts, but that might fall under *argumental*.

 

@Andartianna Those numbers you pulled about the top 20 pvpers... is that in a week ? month ?

Those numbers seem awfully low, even if they are a one month span...

 

@Andartianna For what it's worth, I completely agree with what you said in this thread. Most people disagreeing either never did any pvp or aren't high enough to even notice any decay.

If you lose like 600k exp on death like Andar because someone gusted you off a platform it hurts and is totally pointless.

One possible solution would be to put a "buff" on everyone who has been in a pvp fight that avoids decay completely. Let that buff last 2 minutes. Once the buff runs out you are subject to the usual death decay again.

 

Please add more Info to that.
What level has someone with a loss of 600k
How high is the Pool of that Person and what can he easily kill to restock the "loss" of his buffer pool?

I think people are just making drama anf dont get that it's not supposed to get their 20 GMs to 120 or 150 or 200.

 

You know you keep acting like gm 20 is crazy.
Im adv lvl 91 or 92? And think i stopped playing at about 17 gms.
I very very very vety easily could hit 25 in less then a week.

Like not even doing anything crazy. 250 to 300k exp n hour is low for a skull 5. Lota gms take like a mil to get. So 3h game time.
3x25 is 75h.
Is that a redicoulous amount of farm time? Is that game breaking?
Your talking about an mmo thats intended to be played a lot. Theres no current reason or ability to make multi chars.. and i never would because of how its setup.
Even if death penalty was 20h lost time. I would farm 200k instead and 25 gms is still not that impressivw.

Seriosuly. Where you guys think *end game* and game breaking is incredibly low for ANY game, especially a mmo.

Andars got like 3k hours in yes. But hes right where id be in 2 months from now.. had i kept playinf.. and not far from a lot of otherz in reality.


No 25 gms is nothing. Even if ignoring crafting.
How many weeks since persistance? A gm a week wouls land you at over 40.. lol

And you keep saying not intended.. yet the cap is 200. Yes its redicoulous to reach.. but making 900k to 1mil an hour ( intended exp ) they do go up.

Doesnt take away from the sheer stuoidity of death tax in exp.. when the cap is already * unreachable *

 

it#s crazy to me and playing to get 25 in less than a week is crazy too and not my style to play a game.
cherrypick and grind with no brain isn't playing in my eyes.

i have a build i like to play with and i can nowhere do 250k XP and hour - sorry i am not that pro like others and i dont take it that serious or treat this as "work" or "serious effort" or whatever.
Im neither a mon maxer, doing all the math and whatnot, i ust choose what i would ike and try to play with this.

what others do is alien to me


edit: if you can make that amount of xp i just can lol about complaining about decay ^^

 

I have no more sympathy for those who scream for balance yet will not put any effort in. I see players that have not been playing that long that are doing just fine. I am level 119 now, still at 167 gmes but I'm going to blow that number up right away here. I am hoping by doing this these players just quit, really, that's how I feel about it now.

 

Mr. Beli Jaal has a point, he's probably surprised to hear me say that but I missed the memo on what was going on. I've had a long time to think about this and talked with people about it at length.

Sorry for the format, as people who know me realize I'm an engineer and often communicate like one.

1) If you can't explain the solution in a single simple sentence, its bad design. I've had this beaten into me through countless business plan edits and VC presentations. Anything you build should be follow this rule top to bottom.

a) Oracles giving out fixed exp totals based on questions answered by players, skill level calculations, kills per day, environment vs PvP, etc. is way too complicated to be good design because its hard to explain.
1. The changes that keep happening are symptomatic of the design. We have band-aid solutions all over.
2. Players only have vague estimations to determine how much they'll lose, they'll misunderstand what they see most of the time because of exp consumption and infrequent checks of their pool. That's also symptomatic of the design.

b) It excludes so much that its no wonder Portalarium can't balance it. (conjecture based on observation and experience)
1. Both @DarkStarr and @Atos pointed out that it took them 15 minutes to grind the experience back after death decay. This is the fundamental calculation, the requirement that is acceptable to Portalarium.
2. We learned immediately how askew this was because maybe @Atos was using a PvE or powered up character, but Healers on the other hand had to spend an hour grinding because they aren't combat oriented and could not keep the same pace.
3. After awhile, we learned it didn't really matter at the highest end game play, and that made us realize that entirety of this system effected players differently at every level.
a. It favors player around adventurer level 100 the most -- they can solo locations and get high rates of artifact and supply bundle drops, maximum experience, and special resources.
b. This appears to run counter to the exp cap explanation that Portalarium gave since these highest end players have the best rewards.
1 The amount of EXP to grind up any skill to GM is the same, but a ADV 100 player doing a full grind can reach there faster than an AL 60 player.
2 Death decay doesn't necessarily impact these high end players, only the ones that intend to die frequently.
3 The higher level you achieve, you die less.
4. It makes no allowances for game style.
5. It does not treat players with disabilities equally with those that don't.
6. Simply put, this system cannot be truly balanced without making it more complex.

2) General chatter seems to be negative all around. (Observation)
a. People are tired of hearing the complaints, its creating a negative game experience that is not individual, its shared by many and with many.
b. Its dividing players, especially those around Adventurer Levels 91-96 that are trying to round off their specialized characters to more general.
1. During this time their risks are highest since they still may have issues soloing the better grinding spots.
2. They avoid guild activities with bosses and such with lower level players.
3. The bosses should be tough enough to kill parties several times until players get it right, that also plays into the design, but its a situation these players want to avoid.
4. Going from AV 91 to AV 97 takes a very long time.
c. (Opinion: I don't want to listen to this forever, do you Portalarium? Managing the complaints appears to be consuming Portalarium resources.)
d. (Opinion: Its doubtful that Starr putting his foot down in a telethon or post to the announcements is going to stop the flood of complaints, especially after the go-live.)

3) It does not appear to do for PvP what the PvP environments appear to be built for (conjecture from observation)
a. We have a LOT of really awesome PvP areas that were built with love -- filled with traps, bosses, and exceeding cool design. (Rhun Ruins, Kas Ruins, etc.)
b. If we assume PvP deaths are no exp loss, but the environment is dangerous and likely to kill PvPers, they won't frequent them.
c. As a result, we can assume these areas will continue to be unpopular for PvP:

Key logic:
IF
AND
(P) the Purpose of PvP zones is to encourage PvP and provide a more advanced game play environment that includes death by PvE and environment
(Q) the purpose of no experience loss for PvP is to give an incentive players to PvP
THEN (P and Q implies) the exp loss in any PvP zone for environmental or monster death is (R) counter to the incentive

4) Because of bugs, players die for highly unfair reasons. Much have nothing to do with PvE/PvP or intended environment. (Environmental)
a. Due to this ongoing trench bug, players have entered the Snowy Mountain biome which has no water only to fall to their death on zone in.
b. There are other examples of this all over, including feedback from a new player that died in Owl's Head.
c. There will always be complaints about situations such as these until SotA is completely bug free.

As has been said in many previous posts, I should post a solution for my critique. Mine is just an example:

On death, give a 30 minute stackable debuff that reduces the amount of exp that player can earn by 50%. "Why? Because your Avatar soul is still binding to your new body."​

There. Simple, scales, all game-play types, all levels of experience, and in effect just as bad even more severe than the original. It also matches the fundamental requirement presented by Starr and Chris. It also encourages PvP, slows down high end players as well as the existing system, and no longer penalizes people for bug deaths in a way that takes from them. It also encourages experimentation and participation, at least compared to the original system. It may also encourage players to try a more challenging zone than their normal grind, or even join an exp party instead of going solo.

Also, and this is so people start thinking outside the box... Starr and Chris could also give us a different requirement to work with- this could also be poorly interpreted communication. If they really mean they want people to cap out at Adventurer Level 100 and they are trying to reel back in the folks that exceeded that already, the whole solution can be given a rethink.

However, my opinion is Portalarium should not build more on top of what appears to be bad design.

Sincerely,

Engineer

 

Couldn't agree more.

I'm sick and tired of all the bitching and moaning about people who worked hard for their levels.

I've actually been "accused" of being someone with an adv level of 110+ with 100+ GMs, like its something despicable. I'm lvl 102 with 28 Gms atm just to clear things up but I'm working hard to get there.

 

@Datendrache I like your suggestion. That would be a vast improvement.

On death, give a 30 minute stackable debuff that reduces the amount of exp that player can earn by 50%. "Why? Because your Avatar soul is still binding to your new body."

 

I still think decay would be better switching to a debt system instead. On death you get an xp debt that has to be paid back regardless of your current pool and no more xp goes into your pool until you pay it. Would be much better than skills going backwards

 

Turn off decay.

Take away the GM Title and just call it a master title where they can help peaploe train to 100, then add titles at 125, 150, 175 and 200 for each skill. Then let's set how long it takes for people to get there. In 15 years when I make my first Level 200 we can complain about people reaching them to fast.

 

1st i put the effort i can and are willing to to do!
2nd i already quit competetive aspects of the game because of this imbalance
3rd if you play 12-16hrs a day and are fine with this i dont care if you can manage to have all skills at 200, do it!
Its just that then there will be no mediocre PvP or people who like to go to PvP scenes, because you raise the bar that high.
I dont care anmyore, although i'm still arguing because i want the game have some more players, i cannto see stay and play the game if they realize what it is about - maybe this style is very popular for several players and attitudes, my opinion is that it is way to much meritocracy than just a mediocre offer for a wider base of players.
If people have no work to do and "work" that game - feel free to do it, but know this:
You destroy a lot of my experience and have fun at my cost (neglecting pvp areas) - i do nothing like that.
And important - i dont call you for doing less or want you to play less, step back, don't work or whatever, no do as you like pleasse dont get me wrong.
I ask the devs to balance things out and meet in the middle!

And now drive the measures as you clearly stated that you care less about casuals like me, because we do not the effort you think is neccessary to do to get rewarded. There we have a completely different approach to gaming, especially roleplay gaming.
I dont work, i don't like the math: the more effort, the more reward for games like this - it just drives people apart.
But again, the whole system is made for a SP game and doesn't fit for any MP aspect beside of pure socializing/ dancing.
I bet the groupplay tool they want to implemt wont be ever used if people recognize that everything you can do in this game is better done alone.
I do groupplay, but because i am not after numbers or progress that much.

Sad that you made this statement and now intentionally drive the measures to exclude people that want to play instead to work/ do serious effort or whatever you call it.

Welcome to meritocracy!

*fades away in his private bubble of mediocracy*

p.s. i do not hope you quit if things get nerfed!