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Death Penalty is Too Low

Discussion in 'Release 51 Feedback Forum' started by Black Tortoise, Mar 12, 2018.

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  1. Cordelayne

    Cordelayne Bug Hunter

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    Did you not read my post? That was exactly my point. That the best part is grouping up to do the really hard stuff together. We are simpatico on that point. What I was trying to illustrate, is that decay and xp penalties for grouping, disincentives people from doing exactly that. Of course a dragon should be hard! That's what makes it fun. Decay does not. Sorry.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
  2. Quenton

    Quenton Avatar

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    Patience and practise doesn't resolve anything here. "Training" is what leads to the whole "trying to get XP and dying in the process", which leads to the issue of the death penalty being a nightmare for newbies. It only happens because you were trying to be patient and practise.

    People will give up.
     
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  3. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    Uh, no, just no.
    It takes me an entire evening of killing stuff to recover from a death as it stands now. Even with specialization and a recent reduction of 30 or so 'non essential' GM'd skills down to 80 to try and mitigate it, its still an entire evening. If you are earning back your death xp in "2 or 3 kills" you clearly aren't at a level where the death penalty is relevant. Not trying to be rude, but you aren't in a position to pass judgement on the death penalty system if "2 or 3 kills" is earning it back - you're probably losing less than the 10k free xp still if that's the case.

    You think it should be 5 kills? 10 kills?
    Lets do it. Let me recover from death in 20 kills, and I will never complain about decay again.
    Or 50 kills even.

    The decay system is a horrible joke of a system that punishes you the more you play. A death may cost 5 minutes for 1 player and 5 hours for another. If you wanted to make it "fair" and give everyone a 30 minute "setback" , fine, but then it wouldn't serve as a capping mechanism either.

    And you certainly don't see them putting this in the marketing plan...
    Play Sota now! Lose xp when you die! The more you play, THE MORE YOU LOSE! Buy now.
    With the exception of a few hard-core folks who like the periodic slap in the face, and those who haven't invested enough time levelling their character to feel it, nobody likes this system or sees it as a good thing for the game.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
  4. Quenton

    Quenton Avatar

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    There's another issue that's being talked about further upthread and in the original post - the idea that because we don't have all-out looting on death like in UO, the death penalty should at least be more than what it is now.

    The real question to ask is whether this game really has a want/need for a traditional death penalty at all. In the old single player ultima games, if you died, you just respawned. If there was any XP loss, I didn't notice it and didn't care. That was great.

    I'm one of the ones who liked UO and its loot system, despite the fact I was usually the one dying and getting looted; this kind of death penalty requires a full guard protection system of some sort. This is never coming to SotA, I think we've all largely made peace with that.

    But somehow it's come to a point where SotA's death penalty system seems worse than the single player games because it's far more harsh, and seems worse than UO because it's far too lenient. So we have this half-way measure that quite a few people still aren't satisfied with. Playing with the numbers is a tricky game - it really needs to be all in or all out. Make players really care and make sure they have easy access to the tools they need to prevent it, or make them not care at all so they jump straight back into the fun.
     
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  5. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    @kaeshiva
    In his earlier post he stated that he loses 6k on his first death, so take it from there........o_O
     
  6. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    The key problem for me is that decay is adding a "mandatory grind of x hours" between doing non-grind activities that entail risk.

    I understand the need to softcap, or otherwise 'slow down' players from getting "stronger forever", but I feel that the current diminishing returns system adequately addresses this without the need to add decay on top of it. 87 million exp for another 3% damage? Most of the people saying decay is fine probably don't even have half of that invested *total*.

    I understand the need to make death sting, and wholeheartedly agree it should sting, it should not be trivial, and having dying give me a 15 minute timeout, a debuff that gets worse with each death eventually requiring going back to town (or perhaps the services of a skilled life specialist...eh?) and/or paying (cash sink! devs love cash sink!) the oracle to fix it ...I'd be okay with. Or you could tip your life mage. See? Player interaction. A consumable food/item to remove part of the death/debuff would be another tradeable commodity and cash sink too. Or maybe even trigger the 'xp attenuation' system on death for 30 minutes so everything you earn is halved. Or you can give yourself a time out. Whatever. I'm completely open to alternatives. I think 15-30 minutes setback is a good penalty. When it becomes more XP than I earn doing normal activities in an entire play session, its just far too much.

    Peoples playstyles differ. Some people have gotten to my level in a few months' time doing intense grind. If they die, its a drop in the bucket, 30 minutes on the control point. Whatever. I've gotten to where I am making slow, slow progress for many, many hours. I will not earn back my xp in 30 minutes. Or an hour. Or two hours. Unless I go join a CP group. I know we want group content, but requiring group-grind as a cost to entry to anything risky is not a good model. Everyone complains the game is too grindy, why on earth do we want to have a penalty system that adds even more grind? Its nonsensical.

    The specialization change made this better, but I'm reluctant to use my specializations just as decay mitigators, since I've gotten in the habit of not dying. I still regularly turn down invitations to do 'things that might kill me' and probably miss out on some fun. But the fun, and the reward, is not worth the chore of grinding to get back where I was.
     
  7. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    New players experience ZERO decay. You have to be higher than adventurer level 40 and have skills higher than 40.
     
  8. Quenton

    Quenton Avatar

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    Not decay, death penalty as in XP loss when you die.
     
  9. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    That's decay. New players loose ZERO experience on death.
     
  10. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    Very well stated, @kaeshiva ;)

    For you lower level people (by that I mean anyone who is losing 50k on 1st death or less) the death xp loss is fairly easily recovered and not a serious issue. I understand that.

    But......... think ahead and consider this.......

    When you do get to the point of losing 50k on your 1st death, how will you react ?

    At that point you will understand/discover (as many of us already have) that the only way to "progress" your character (IE USE your xp points obtained from killing stuff) will be to continue FOREVER into a future of "safe" mode.
    IE, you will find yourself in someplace like Deep Ravenswood doing a very boring grind - to further "progress" your char, because challenging anything beyond a Tier 5 means a possible death - and you won't want to lose 50K hard earned xp's by challenging more difficult content.

    So.............. when you ARE - eventually - at that point (and how long will that be?) - you'll face the dilemma that many of us currently face - IE - what IS the purpose in advancing your char's ability to fight - since further advancement means more points put into skills, and doing that means an ever growing death xp loss penalty !

    You'll have to settle for being no more powerful than you are now.
    That's it..........

    And THAT is the issue with the xp loss on a death.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
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  11. SteelCore

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    Last week i faced a new dilemma.
    I was asked by a "friend" if i would help him and another one with the quest for killing the phoenix. I answered him: not at the moment because i dont have enough pooled XP to cover a possible death.
    Then he told me there is no reason to have me on his friendlist anymore if i refuse to help.

    That reminded me to the movie "How to lose friends & and alienate people"... maybe next time i will simply lie and will say i have to walk the dog :D
     
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  12. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    This is my main gripe and always has been; how decay changes player behavior and culture.
    Boss content in particular. Back in the days before decay (or before it got as bad as it is now due to my continuing to level up and play the game) I would happily drag anyone to the Phoenix; Scoff & I would drag new folks to see their first dragon fight, etc. "What's this big mushroom thing" in the shardfall, and so on. With the current decay mechanic (and subsequent changes to skills/bosses) if I let my attention drop for a second, a second...that dragon can do a couple nasty crits and I'm toast. For neglible xp and insulting loot, it is not worth the risk, not unless you're in the 1% dragon steamrolling club.

    So we don't do that anymore.

    Someone needed help in Oracle Colossus the other day. In the past, I'd go escort folks through, but now....knowing if I mess up and fall into the lava its several hours' grind, best I am willing to do is try to explain what's required.

    While I am in no way suggesting that death should be trivial, it shouldn't be so harsh that it keeps people from even playing the game - or worse, actively discourages interaction with / helping of other players. As long as we have permanent, unmitigatable loss, this is exactly what it is doing.
     
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  13. Black Tortoise

    Black Tortoise Avatar

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    My dear, your opinion is appreciated, but I must disagree - as a backer of many years, I absolutely am in a position to discuss my opinions on the mechanics of the game. I do realize I produced a wall of text, so Ill summarize again - I vie for impermanence.

    I do not want any of you to just permanently have your uber characters, unless you are the mightiest of warriors. The same goes for me. When I ascend to your level, and fall off of my house in a drunken stupor, then I am not fit for the title of "grandmaster of all of the things."

    I'd like a game where most of us are in the "average" area, and occasionally, some of us rise to the status of uber. Eventually, the mighty fall, some rise again, some fall again, etc.

    If you'd like to keep what youve earned, then dont die :)

    There is no such thing as fairness in the universe of a warrior.


    ---

    Also, as Weins was pointing out - I dont really like the decay mechanism either. Its weaksauce on its own. Death needs to be far more severe. Ill settle for exp decay penalty if it has to be that safe and sound for everyone, but at least make the decay way higher. Otherwise, refer to the OP for more suggestions :).

    Also also, Im ok with newbies being spared in some way. Less decay, you dont lose gold/items until past adv lvl 20, etc.

    ----


    Yall really gotta nock it with the straw man arguments and other logical fallacies :).

    To correct this - the more you die, the more you lose. Just dont die! Playing != losing. Dying = losing. If youre really dying so much that its just a natural part of the game, then the game is very weak, IMO.

    ----

    The level of my character in no way implies my inability to speak on this topic. Everyone is trying to find logical fallacies and emotionally charged rants to back up their opinions. You all want permanence, I want impermanence. Ive also played in the prior releases where the death penalty was "reasonably severe" (at least enough that I actually cared about it). I would like it if right now, I lost about 60k, instead of 6k. Believe it or not, I am actually intelligent enough to entertain the idea of what more severe death penalties would be like, and I do not share the same opinions as you, nor would I if I had mashed the buttons for greater lengths of time as you.

    There are many other solutions to the problem I see - but my original statement will always stand. The death penalty is too low.

    You are beginning to understand! :-D

    Sounds like you did not lose a friend, but a fairweather parasite!

    Right so, instead of decay, I favor corpse recovery, item loss, gold loss, monsters take your stuff, temporary skill/stat loss while you recover from death (until a healer heals you) etc. Exp decay on top of all that is fine with me, but exp decay alone is weak.
     
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  14. kaeshiva

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    @Black Tortoise you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I'm not begrudging you that.
    But you simply do not have the hands on experience with regards to this issue.
    This is relevant: Your arguments are based only on this "theoretical" stance that when you reach a high level, you wont mind decay because you like hard core punishment mechanics.

    And you may be absolutely right - it may not bother you when you get there.. Because you are one of those 'exceptions' I mentioned above, those who like punishment for punishment's sake, and feel the game has to be a constant work/grind against attrition in order to be enjoyable to you. And that's okay. This opinion is completely valid and you are free to believe this.

    This does NOT mean that this system is good for other players, or for player retention, or good for the health/population/future of the game.

    I in no way intend this to be a personal attack, but your argument is very reminiscent of a novice writer trying to tell the many-times-published author how to write, with justification being that you both paid the same price for the pen.

    The game cannot, should not, and must not change to cater to a few fringe hardcore players on EITHER side of the spectrum.

    Some people would like a game with no decay, no death penalty, and no hassle - play as you will.
    Others like yourself think that death should be a crushing defeat/setback.
    The reality is it needs to be somewhere between these extremes.
    In the case of this game, where getting yourself killed can happen pretty regularly - ie, mobs that can one or two shot even the "uberly uber" if they make a misstep, you can't have a penalty as bad as this and expect people to keep running around the hamster wheel to get back where they were, over and over again. Its not sustainable.

    They will either
    a) quit playing
    b) quit advancing/investing in skills (self-cap) and eventually have less and less reason to log on/play/do anything.
    or
    c) stop doing things that get them killed and play safely at all times

    None of the above options are good for the health/future of the game.
    All of the above lead to an eventual decline in interest / reduced playtime.

    I'm sorry but its 2018, the 90s-era punishment mechanics aren't going to fly when the potential user has hundreds of games to choose from that aren't going to punch them in the face every time they log in and try to do anything.
     
  15. Cinder Sear

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    I miss those days... :oops:
    Same here... :(
     
  16. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    I actually don't object to many of your other suggestions and have suggested many of the same myself.
    The problem has always been that we are trying to 'use' death penalty as a capping mechanic, and these two things should not be linked.
    If I dropped everything I'd picked up since entering a scene when I died, until I went and sorted my corpse out - fine. As long as said corpse is reachable or there's an alternative for when it isn't (ie falling through the world, bottom of lava, etc). I wouldn't be in favor of dropping equipped items, the weeks of effort it takes to make decent gear pushes that into the "too severe" range. I would have no problem with a timeout, stat debuff, or cash sink associated with death, either. I'd even be ok with reduced xp gains for a time while recovering from death.

    A single mistake should cost enough to make you re evaluate your strategy and think twice about what you're doing but not make you uninstall the game in a fit of rage.
     
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  17. Black Tortoise

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    Again, these are a skewing, strawing, and distortion of my statements. I wouldnt say I want anything "hard core" - the world isnt black and white - but I dont want "soft core" either.

    I could easily accuse you all of wanting a big "I win!" button that you simply mash 200,000 times and then you become endgame level for infinity. I wouldnt make such an accusation though :).

    And yes, I think little experience is required to reason about the sort of game I'd like to invest in. I can reason about how Id like the housing system to work, for example, before I've played the game, or even before it has been developed. I can reason that I'd like there to be mounts, or not, in the game, before I've actually ridden any in-game horses. I can certainly reason that Id like death to be meaningful and feared, and to represent a ceiling that keeps most players around an "average" level of skill/glyph access and efficiency - without having to be a higher level avatar, that is.

    You may need to remove the assumption that I think like you, and value the same thigns as you, and have the same emotional attachments to things I have/have not done in the game. That is essentially the point of this thread - I value impermanence, you value permanence. I dont need to be higher level to understand your position. I simply disagree on the mechanics of the game, and when I am your adventurer level (soon!), I will still have the exact same position.

    Lets think of it this way, instead:

    The following is my interpretation of the development patterns Ive observed.

    1. Portalarium wants a soft cap on "leveling" in the game. Theoretically, one could become extremely powerful, however, few players have the skill and longevity to achieve or maintain it. I am fully in agreement with this model.

    2. Portalarium thinks you should need to not only understand and master the use of skills/glyphs/items/trade/groups etc in the game, but also the skill of not-dying. This is represented by curbing experience gained on death, at such a rate per-adventurer level that most players will hover around about halfway to the hard cap. The only players to experience high levels beyond the hard cap are those whom have mastered the most difficult skill of all - not dying. They will be rare, but there will always be some. Most will not achieve this skill. I am in agreement with this model.

    3. Portalarium is trying to balance #2 with each iteration of the game, in order to create the reality of #1 without making it too-hard for some players. I currently believe this needs tweaked once more such that death is of greater significance for players around adv lvl 70-80. I also believe it should become equivalently more significant for players beyond adv lvl 80. I also listed several other ways that contribute to #1, which can be balanced together to achieve it as well as contribute to my desire for object and skill impermanence (at a very manageable level).

    4. Portalarium also believes that if youre obsessed with "being the highest level", "always possessing the best possible gear", "having every skill in the game", "being able to solo 100% of the game content", etc, then youre missing the point. Stop and smell the flowers once in a while (note: theyll improve with further iterations!). See how advanced you can become with emotes. Be involved with the game lore, and use property in the game to enhance its lore and culture. Organize community events. Experience quests. Open your mind to new models of "fun" and detach from the possession of material gain. Group more. Find new players to help. Etc. Dont grind (unless you actually find that fun!). Be open minded about the goals you set for yourself. Stop racing to the top, youll miss everything! I am in agreement with this model.

    So once more, the death penalty is too low. Once more, I died to a pack of elves shooting me in the back while typing this very post, at adventurer level 77, and I dont even care at all, because death has no real significance right now.


    Also, I am not a hard-core player. I am a very casual player. I roleplay a cook, for oracle's sake. Since persistence, Ive achieved a mere 77 adv levels. Not hard core :). I just want the game to be challenging, and the game world to be feared and respected. Accusing me of being some kind of masochist is simple minded and ignorant, and represents stark logical fallacies in your thinking. I fully intend to not-die! Much could be said about those addicted to grinding ;)

    Accusing me of naivety simply represents your fear, and emotional attachment to how many buttons youve pressed. You posses some sort of belief that you "earned" some points and cant conceive of letting go. Youre not a day trader, are you? :p This of course is a joke to represent how silly it is to use such accusations to distract from my point.

    If you die, it no longer belongs to you. It was meant for a true warrior. This is the koan of impermanence.
     
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  18. Elwyn

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    How many (combat) GMs do you have? I have four (I thought I had three until I noticed Blades was 100) and a few more in the low 80s, and my first-death penalty right now is 19k. (which means 38k total) The death penalty doesn't get serious until you start racking up GMs. While I am not hardcore, I consider myself "hard causal". I'm at AL85/PL80, and quite a lot of the first was acquired incidentally while acquiring the second. I'm sitting on an 8M adventuring pool simply because I don't care enough to spend it right now.

    It is intentional that the second and successive deaths (half of your penalty each time) won't have meaning to you if you're not one of those few players with 100+ GMs. So guess what, the death penalty isn't intended to make you care about it. It's intended to make the uber levelers care about it.
     
  19. Jezebel Caerndow

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    I do my very best not to die, lose 800k with rezz on first death. I practiced not dying ever since persistence before death decay was even a thing, but I knew it was coming.
     
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  20. Gatsu.

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    i stopped playing and exploring (in solo) because every death is a pain. .. i just login to kill mobs on Deep Raven ...this not require (for my armour and lvl) blessings, food or potions.. or other things... when i finish the scene i log out ... now i want just to see release 52.. and after that shutdown this game like my other friends.
     
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