Decay for Crafting? I do not think it needs any cap but . . . . . .

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Weins201, Mar 19, 2018.

?

Do oyu feel that there is a need to put some kind of Decay Mechanic onto the Producer Skillz

  1. Yeah it is needed (coments needed - why and how)

  2. No it is not needed (comment wanted be simple to the point)

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  1. Weins201

    Weins201 Avatar

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    Going to get this done now before it even becomes a thing.

    Who feels there is any reason to put any kind of "Decay" on Crafting. There is no real issues if a player learns all the crafting skills they can. There are so many other restrictions that will hinder crafting that if a player become a Jack of All And works very hard to be a Master of all then good for them.

    This is not anything close to Producer Exp and training and should not even be considered as one. Crafters are supposed to be able to be independent and intuitive and fun. Any limitation implemented are going to do nothing but be a negative.

    So before it even hits make your voice known 2 simple choices.

    If you feel there needs to be a cap for some reason give a very specific reason as to why and how to implement NOT decay - as Decay is a system they cannot even make work in Adventuring there is no way they can make it work in Production.
     
  2. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    I think their idea for "decay" is that when you fail at enchanting/masterworking then you have the option do save your item by spending XP. They were also thinking about letting you disregard an attempt, if you didn't like the results, for the same XP cost.
     
  3. Weins201

    Weins201 Avatar

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    Spending Exp to try and same an items is not really decay. With the amount of resources their rarity and cost to obtain sure this could have a viable reason. But this is not Decay this is I=suing a skill to reserve an item craft / specialize attempt. If lumped in with decay just PP labling.
     
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  4. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    Well, that's the only thing I have heard proposed so far. When they propose something else then we can start bitching. Until then, this thread is not very useful.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
  5. Weins201

    Weins201 Avatar

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    It is VERY useful since we all know what decay is and what they are thinking you could come here and give you thoughts and ideas. That is what a forums is for - present an issue discuss it, present possible solutions.

    SO since I do not feel there is even a need of some kind of cap nothing needs to be done.

    If you think there is a need the any form of "Decay" like being 1/2 arsed in Adventuring will cause nothing but problems.

    Using pooled exp as a tool to reserve items from being totally lost do to failure is viable and a way to manage outrageous pool levels but that is not Decay.

    it is a good idea and more ideas like this are needed. Not more stupid skills either, work with all the complexities already in the skills, more lipstick is NOT the solution. There is already to many foundation cover ups and brush strokes to cover a flaw it is going to dry out and fall of and leave a wrinkly old crone stanig there giggling at us.

    Sitting back and waiting until they just implement a BAD system, and finding out it was abused and flawed will result of flaws/loophole in another year of chasing some kinds of fixs.

    Fix it out front, present a viable system that can be tweaked not needed to be completely overhauled like Decay for Adv ..

    Compliancy will result in a system that is flawed from the start and fixes will not work ((( this is the pattern almost hardened in stone )))
     
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  6. Lazlo

    Lazlo Avatar

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    I'm not necessarily against some kind of thing where you spend xp to save items, but I don't really see any reason why crafting needs any kind of decay mechanic. It's not like adventuring where you keep getting stronger and increasing the rate at which you gain xp.
     
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  7. Ryodin Stormwind

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    There are a lot of absolutes in your original post. I'm not sure why you even have a poll up if you have already closed the debate on crafting decay. I'm also not sure what your problem with decay in adventure mode is either. Sure, it could use some tweaks - you probably shouldn't suffer decay if you are killed by a player for example. Also, dying due to things like falling shouldn't result in decay.

    But you are asking about crafting exclusively here...I think...

    You mention that there are all these other restrictions on crafters that negates the need for decay, yet you didn't list any of them. In your opinion, what are these restrictions?

    I can only assume this post is in reference to the post where the developers reveal the plan on adding specializations to crafting. This is essentially a decay system once you start specializing in a given production skill. Is there some other post that mentions a different decay system being planned?

    Decay serves one purpose: to prevent people from being able to craft anything and everything in the game at the highest level, assuming they were able to acquire the materials needed to do so. The obvious conflict with a system where there is no skill cap or decay is that, eventually, you don't need anyone else to be involved whatsoever in crafting. Now, imagine if everyone followed this path. Theoretically, you arrive at a place where no third party crafters are needed for the construction of any item. This would be a virtual death blow to the player economy. Why would I buy any crafted good from someone else's player vendor when I could just craft it myself and avoid the markup for the other player's time crafting?

    Now, maybe your idea of other restrictions is that you still have to grind the levels, loot the drop-only recipes, and acquire the materials. These aren't actual limitations though. They are simply functions of time.

    Then again, many people are just going to level alternate accounts to remain self-sufficient anyways. So, in conclusion, a decay system really only impacts those unwilling to pay for and play multiple accounts. I can see how that would seem unfair to many players. However, the developers may be looking at it as a limit on how many people actually achieve self-sufficiency, as a player would need a minimum of 5 accounts assuming each production skill had a single specialization skill. That would be cost prohibitive for some; at least in terms of it outweighing their cost-benefit.

    If the decay system is this "pay to save" experience sink mentioned above, then I have to agree - that's not really a decay system. It's just a way to use extra experience that you may not even need if you've already maxed your crafting skills.

    Anyways, my opinion on the matter isn't made up, and I certainly wouldn't close my mind to debate. I'd at least entertain an idea posited by the developers; if it's flawed, I'd provide my perspective on what I think would make it better.

    ---

    @Lazlo Sure, crafters get stronger at creating their profession's goods the higher their level, or, at least, that's how it should be functioning. Crafting at level 130 for example should yield better equipment than crafting at level 100. I'm not sure if that is currently functioning, but clearly that is the intent - otherwise crafting skills would cap at 100.
     
  8. Onyx

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    Could someone provide a link to where @Chris mentioned that he was considering decay in producer points. I think I missed that.
    Are they considering allowing the forfeiture of producer points to save a grey pine bow with elven bowstrings that has been masterworked 3 times and I am failing on the 3rd enchant? If so that should be a "massive" amount of points since it has a massive amount of materials invested getting to that point. And, of course, suddenly there would be a whole bunch more +13 to +15 armor and weapons since there would be no risk other than some XP

    BAD IDEA!!

    Decay? Bah! Just a minor annoyance.

    I tend to think that this whole discussion is pointless until Chris tells us what he is intending to implement, if anything.
     
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  9. Lazlo

    Lazlo Avatar

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    I don't mean that crafted items don't continue to get better. I just mean that the rate at which production experience can be gained hits a wall very quickly. It's not like adventure experience where dozens of different skills help you kill things faster and faster and mobs give more and more experience the stronger that you get. You just keep getting 500 producer xp per node, and there is only so much you can do to increase the speed at which you harvest nodes.
     
  10. Ryodin Stormwind

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    @Lazlo Ah, that makes sense. Sorry for misunderstanding. Seems like they should address that - harder to craft items should yield more experience. Harvesting nodes in higher tier areas should yield more experience. Refining higher level materials should yield more experience. But I do think they are limited on the scalability of those things for sure.
     
  11. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    The problem with crafting decay is what would be the 'trigger' ? You don't "die" crafting.

    Fail rates are absurdly too high as it is, you start adding decay to crafting for 'failures' then well there's no point making anything to try and sell (even less point than there is already) because not only are you making a loss in gold its going to cost you exp as well ? Extremely bad idea. The option to 'spend' xp to do a reroll is a better choice, though still isn't going to serve as a 'limiter'. And what about people who don't craft gear? No decay for them then? Honestly I think a specialization for crafting will solve the "everyone crafts everything" problem enough without the need to add yet more punishment to a system that is already far too punishing as is.

    And what about the need to invest xp in harvesting, refining? We going to say you can't even gather your own stuff efficiently anymore? Going to tell crafters to 'turn skills off' at 'good enough' and not progress any further? Many of us crafters tolerate the adventure decay because at least we can slowly advance in producer skills. The fact that you need to invest enough xp to GM a sklil 7 times over to get a 2% success bonus....fine, we grind it, we do it. Now you're going to give us decay for investing further? Really? Take that away and you leave nothing permanent, nothing that can be worked for and earned and kept, well...you end up with no reason to do anything. Its a bad, bad idea and I can't think of any implementation that would serve to limit crafters without screwing people who have invested thousands of hours in it, except potentially hardcaps.

    Enough with this 'the more you play the more you lose' nonsense, really. I want to be here for the long haul not afraid to refine my own crap because failing a 98% smelt or a 94% gather is gonna cost me hours of producer grind. The system for adventuring is a bad system, and applying it to crafting its an even worse system.
     
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  12. Barugon

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    Yeah, I'd like to see this too.
     
  13. Barugon

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    At this point, you're manufacturing something to complain about.
     
  14. 2112Starman

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    Ive been trying to craft since day 1 of persistence and only made prod lvl 76. Im a good 5 years from being a "good" crafter so no.... crafting decay is not needed... since you need to play the game 16 hours a day for the past year strait to be a good crafter even now. Then add to that burning hours and hours of time farming stuff and hundreds of thousands of gold to just get one decent item made... no decay needed.
     
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  15. Rada Torment

    Rada Torment Community Ambassador (ES)

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    No decay needed, but specializations or some kind of limitations.

    It's important to remember we had caps in games we loved, games we think were the best (UO, SWG...), so any cap system, well designed, is better than decay imo.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
  16. Ravicus Domdred

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    Well said. What I would promote is the next episode for new recipe's and a higher cap possibly. Right now I have a crafter, or several crafters actually, but I feel no need to play them what so ever. So many people have such high levels, the market is saturated, and there are stockpiles of commodities just waiting for launch. As a casual I see no need to even try to catch up. The prices need to fall however on the items because that is another deterrent. I cannot afford to buy armor, cant take the time to craft the armor.
     
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  17. MasterWan

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    I disagree. I don’t like the idea of someone being a master of every skill in the game. Too Darkfall.
     
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  18. Malimn

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    Wiens your NUTS on this one...

    A. Takes too damn long to obtain materials to craft.
    B. Producer experience takes WAY to long to gain.
    C. Amount of materials it takes to even make an item not to mention the amount of mind numbing hours it takes to craft one item that would sell.
    D. Adding decay to crafters would be the final straw for me and other crafters who are already having a tough time moving forward.
    E. Financial costs alone for crafting is absurd for raw materials.

    I have 19 GM Crafting skills (Mining Proficiency, Mining Survey, Mining Swift Gathering, Mining Meticulous Collection, Smelting Proficiency, Smelting Efficient Refine Materials, Blacksmith Proficiency, Blacksmith Salvage, Blacksmith Repair, Blacksmith Masterwork, Blacksmith Blade Weapon, Blacksmith Chain Armor, Blacksmith Plate, Alchemy Proficiency, Enchant, Enchant Weapons, Enchant Armor, Carpentry Proficiency, Carpentry Salvage).

    I am already spending 2-3 hours per night to gain producer pool experience and at least 4 hours per weekend day as well and you think I need to be punished by having decay added and then deal with specialization which is coming soon. I cannot compete against most of the high level crafter's out there head to head but I am close to them now.

    I have support from a small guild but I do 95% of this on my own and I am literately BROKE in game and have at best no more than 3-5k to my name with TWO accounts as I try to support my crafter.

    Again I disagree with you on this.
     
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  19. Alleine Dragonfyre

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    No. I do not feel there should be decay. I feel there should be a cap on how many crafting skills one avatar can have, however.
     
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  20. Weins201

    Weins201 Avatar

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    L-M-A-O

    Since you actually agree with me not disagree but TY for reiterating my point..

    I do NOT want Decay or caps,

    R-O-F-L
     
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