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Decks are not a problem

Discussion in 'Release 10 Feedback' started by Poor game design, Sep 28, 2014.

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  1. Vendetta

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    The combat system of DAoC was oriented along that line of thinking. It was a pretty damn good system (with the notable exception of the class imbalances).

    Also, in many ways, the original UO was this way, especially with reagent magic needs, well-timed magic reflections, EV dumps, Walls of Stone and other tricks.

    I'm feeling after my taste of the Alpha this weekend that the OP (Baron Drocis) has pretty much summed up my concerns to the letter.
     
  2. UnseenDragon

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    I don't agree with this. While there is some similarity between PvP in SotA and poker in the randomness, the skill aspect of poker (patterns, odds, bluffing) doesn't really have a parallel. From what little I've observed, it still comes down to maxing the DPS of your deck and then, based on what cards are available, maximizing their utilization. As for the skill of chess, I don't see how that could easily be mapped into PvP.

    One of the barriers is that most games of skill are relatively slow-paced, PvP is not.
     
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  3. Luznad

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    this... ;)

    why no "crafting table" for memorizing spells... ;)

    pvp for me is slow-paced... you just whait to see the right symbol and click it....

    i would vote for a physical engine.. when you hit the guy you dont get him
    when he gots his shield/spell/whatever up in time.
    i would prefere a more actionbased combat where your actions decides who wins..

    deckbuilding is something is see totaly for the magic system... but not for all sorts of combat.
     
  4. Drocis the Devious

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    In the current combat system, there's little parallel. That's why I had said "But there's a STRONG conceptual link between games like Poker and Chess and where we need the combat system to be."

    In terms of Poker and Chess, you're exactly right, the current combat system lacks that type of tactical and strategic challenge.

    Here's what's difficult about concepts, they're not one for one. I'm no more saying that SOTA combat should have all aspects of Chess and Poker than I'm saying SOTA combat should have physical pieces that players move while sitting in a park in New York City. What I AM saying, is that SOTA should have the same tactical and strategic elements that Poker and Chess have and that using those two games as a guide would solve a lot of problems.

    Here's one example: In Chess, there are different pieces (skills) with different values (functionality). There's no DAMAGE PER SECOND, there's no COOL DOWNS. The game plays very well, it's very competitive, and it's very challenging. There are more parallels that we can use, but I'm not going to rehash it all.

    The one point I think you correctly identify is that these games (Chess and Poker) are both turn based, and for a lot of people that will play this game that's not a good option. Although I personally would be thrilled if the combat were turn based. So there are a number of ways that the devs could simulate "turns" without hard coding them into the combat system. One such solution might be to require more than one card (a combo) before attacking someone. Instead of just playing single cards very quickly, now players would have to wait a small amount of time to play a PAIR or Three of a Kind, or a FLUSH, etc...

    This would make the "rounds" a bit more lengthy and require more powerful attacks, but the possible (for me) would be less twitch, less reliance on the speed of your internet connection, and a more cerebral game that resembles Poker or Chess. But alas I said I wasn't going to offer solutions. :)
     
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  5. UnseenDragon

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    I understand your points, I'm just not sure how you translate that (good thing I'm not a game designer). I think this is made even more difficult since they've stated that they want combat to be fast, I seem to remember Chris saying 15 seconds.

    I think another aspect about Chess is that the number of permutations are so numerous that you cannot remember every response to every move. There is no 'best approach'. It would be great if this could be replicated in a PvP experience, I just don't know how. I would be interested in that because I am not very quick with my reactions (on a computer) and I don't find PvP to be particularly interesting. I would love to find a game to change my opinion.
     
  6. Drocis the Devious

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    15 to 30 as I remember it. I think that's where it is now, and I don't think there's any reason the game can't continue to be like that. I just believe that we don't need 20 fire arrows in a single combat, we could get away with 3.


    That's a great point about not being able to remember all the moves. I think it's more than possible in SOTA, but it would require us to forget about damage and cool downs. Instead, we'd just have HITS and NOT HITS. Kind of like what I assume FENCING would be like. (only slower)
     
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  7. Shadowrun

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    Some idea's that come to mind after reading this thread...

    Perhaps adding an element to more actively control the randomness of the cards? I don't know what it would be, but maybe it would be a matter of adding some new focus skill which could deal cards based on a predetermined offensive, defensive type stance. Or maybe it wouldn't have to be skill based at all? This is tricky as the system is already very complex as it is.

    For combos adding a feature where similar cards are automatically grouped on the hotbar which would make the combo situation a little less micro oriented. Maybe if you have a level 3 or 4 combo stored up you have some feature that easily allows you to spend one card or all cards for the combo.

    Perhaps have a combo book that will automatically combine cards on your hotbar so you don't have to do it yourself and have those combos locked on a different bar that will then "turn on" once the proper cards have been dealt?

    I could probably think of some more stuff but that's what comes to mind at the moment.. Thoughts?
     
  8. Drocis the Devious

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    I think those are all good ideas that would improve the current system. I hadn't thought about combos being put into a book before. I like the idea of having a "spell book" or a "fighting book" that has to be preset prior to combat (and maybe even a day before combat). Then having the deck automatically sorted to fill in the combos you're looking for...now it just becomes a matter of waiting for the combos to be available. This is similar to what I've previously pitched to the devs (and stated in a number of threads) but your improvement on the idea is well received.

    To be clear, I really like the idea of having smaller attacks and defenses (PAIRS) and larger combination attacks and defenses (Three of a Kind, STRAIGHTS, FULL HOUSE, FLUSH...etc...) as a way to balance out attacks without min/maxing damage and cool downs. So using this logic, if you attack me with a PAIR, but I have a defense set up with Three of a Kind, I block your attack. ;)
     
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  9. Satan Himself

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    I found being a pure mage much more fun and effective than wielding a weapon or using a hybrid structure. If anything, IMO, the weapons skills need to be beefed up to balance their effectiveness in combat vs. magic.
     
  10. Shadowrun

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    Well I'm happy to help out with any creative development and add my two cents :)

    I'm with you on the poker comparison. There is a random element to that game mixed with elements of solid strategy. The randomness keeps it fresh and then it's a matter of trying to truly understand your opponent. I think that realization is lost on a lot of the traditional MMO pvp combat types which focus on the battle and not the war.

    Seems to me like people want to know that they have the best build so all they have to think about is pressing their hotkeys in the correct order as quickly as possible in response to what they are seeing. The factor of randomness really irks those with that mentality where their self-worth in a game is hinged purley on hours played (level, skill points equate to 1,000 hours of play so how is it fair that I loose to someone with 300 hours?)

    But I like to see randomness as a factor in one's strategy. To me it's far more realistic.
     
  11. Drocis the Devious

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    Auto targeting makes mages OP.

    Fire Arrow is really crazy over powered. No reagents needed to cast for full power. Damage over time. Auto target, can't be avoided. No active counter. If players could make their entire deck full of fire arrow they would.
     
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  12. Vendetta

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    It's not a coincidence that when I was forced to start looking at the trees seriously while trudging through the Challenge Dungeon, I ended up specing heavily into fire. Though I'm not entirely convinced that the fire RESISTANCE is actually working as advertised.
     
  13. sn0tub

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    How can you not counter fire arrow? There is a skill called Douse, soley for that purpose.

    You make out fire arrow is an I Win button. Its not.

    Its alpha, theres limited skills and combos, some things are going to be stronger then others. Not s reflection of the true games.
     
  14. Drocis the Devious

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    Douse only counters Damage Over Time. It doesn't heal the damage you took originally, and you're likely going to take SOME damage over time. Plus you have to send focus and round time to cast douse, in the meantime the other player is hitting you with another fire arrow.

    I didn't say it's an "I WIN" button...I said it was overpowered. And yeah, it is pre-alpha. But so far I haven't seen an ACTIVE defense that will block anything (100%) so I'm complaining about the concept and using fire arrow as my number one example.
     
  15. Lord_Darkmoon

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    Is it just me or is this getting more and more complicated? Why can't I just rush into a fight, swining my sword and casting some spells? Seems I have to study the whole system in university ;)
    I really hope that it does not get overcomplicated... Especially when they want to reach as much players as possible...
     
  16. Drocis the Devious

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    I agree with you, it shouldn't be this complicated. The current system is actually very complicated, isn't it?

    As for reaching the most people, I question who's going to play this game.

    I mean, let me get this straight...you're going to have roleplayers that enjoy crafting, housing, and the lore, and they're going to roleplay all day...but when they get to combat they're going to just hack and slash min/max like crazy and those two things are going to be FUN to the same group of people?

    No freakin way. This combat system doesn't play nice with roleplaying. It ignores roleplaying. It's like a separate game within a roleplaying game.
     
  17. Lord_Darkmoon

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    Generally it is a problem of pleasing as much people as possible but on the other hand offering no hand holding. I'm all for some retro feeling and having to find things out myself etc. But on the other hand the game also needs to be fun. And unfortunately I do not have that much time playing games with job, wife and childern so I want the time I play to matter and be fun.
    So I think that the game systems should be easy to understand and easy to play so that I can spend as much time experiencing the story, exploring the world and roleplay.
     
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  18. Drocis the Devious

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    I totally agree with you, Lord Darkmoon.

    I'm a big proponent of meaningful pvp. I have been very vocal about wanting pvp and wanting the combat and magic system to be meaningful. But as it stands right now, I wouldn't play this combat system at launch. I'd be a crafter that opened a shop somewhere and hired other people to go out and play this horrible system.

    I may be alone. But I think over a short period of time the game would probably be full of people that were similar to me. We're going to play the fun parts where it's easiest to roleplay. I have yet to see anyone roleplay anything while in combat.
     
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  19. Net

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    I think that Purify + Healing spells (stops)heal more damage per focus than you can cast.

    Anyway I think that only few builds were any good in this release.

    Fire mage/archer with heals in clothes.
    Bludgeons with their stuns, preferably in heavy armour.
    Polearms were quite good too, especially with roots where at right distance you could attack your target without them fighting back.

    Swords were quite useless. I tried them, even with all rend combos, but it was really weak build no matter what I tried. Same for shield.
    All schools or magic but fire and life were useless. Sure Gust was quite good, Death ray was great for combo (and death works quite nice as well) and Roots were quite good. Lightning was too expensive in focus and it did not stun as much as it should. Ice Elemental is really slow. Those water and earth spells did not do much damage (though Earth has some good innates). Only powerful magic is fire magic, other schools of magic have one or two useful spells but it is no good to specialize in them, I have some hopes for Air tree, but Water tree is no good at all. Life magic is great, but it is only good against mages. You can not heal faster against melee fighters, especially if you spend time stunned and getting critical damage...

    Also while firemage/archer build was good in PvP it was no use against strong NPCs, 100+ critical damage from Lich Fighter meant one hit kills. And even hordes of archers and mages meant big troubles. Player was loosing health quickly and was not able to cause much damage...
     
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  20. Flesh2

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    well the whole purpose of the game isn't nesscessarily about roleplaying some people love it other's don't care for it, it is a diverse world we live in both realistically and online so we can't just say okay let make it this or that we have to find a way to make everyone happy, role playing is role playing you make your own rule's up as you go which is fine so i don't exactly see what the issue is with that, same as a duel you may have set rules or some might say anything goes its all about finding a fair balance for all and to me the ultima online system is fair and just because it allows you to play the way you wanna play it's still the best combat system i've used and to be honest if we start adding stuff like ultima online age of shadows did to buff certain things is a terrible idea because its makes the combat system very unbalanced especially for newer players who will be joining the game for example i remember i took a break from ultima online after trammel came out because the pvp was dead at that rate or there was no one to pk or anything hardly anymore, so long story short i joined a guild who was in factions had fun with that til it dried out then i had a feud with this pk guild they came and came and came til i finally gave in and dueled to the death to try and join the guild but again adding items to the game to enhance game play is a horrible idea in my opinion if they add items it should be just simple stuff in my option magic weapons maybe but mage's would be a huge disadvantage again as i stated in another post because magic is already pretty weak (although it is just pre-alpha) but thats the thing it gives too much stuff for the dev team to focus on instead of the real things like game play and making things easier and more accessable for new players who will very likely check the game out once it goes live ect so to me it should only be like magic slayer weapons like a silver axe for example which can easily kill liches ect other then that i think it should only be player made weapons like the old school uo solely because it makes things simplier and you dont have to go too far out of your way to get items ect theres gonna tons of things to focus on and get and make and craft once the game is live so there will be tons to do does matter if you pvp/pve and/or role play there will be tons to do but PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, DO NOT ADD STUFF LIKE ARTIFACTS TO THIS GAME it will only make things rough all over economy wise ect
     
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