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Devs: Please define the meaning of "macros" properly

Discussion in 'Release 37 Feedback Forum' started by helm, Jan 3, 2017.

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  1. helm

    helm Avatar

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    Dear @DarkStarr, you have declared the use of "any macros" to be an offense punishable by suspension or even a permanent ban.

    In principle this is quite understandable and even commendable. However, on practical level, the rather vague definition of a "macro" leaves an uncomfortable amount of room for interpretation - as has already been pointed out by many folks in the linked thread.

    @Berek did attempt to clarify, thank you for that, but this clarification does not mention macros at all, and mostly serves to shift vagueness of the definition to another vague term, namely "unfair advantage".

    In gaming context, a macro is commonly defined as a sequence of instructions/actions that can be executed with a single command (often mapped, for example, to a key press). Your definition regarding the difference between a "macro" and a "bot" may be different, but I understand it to be in the amount of game-related feedback that potentially affects the execution: a macro is completely "blind" and executes the instructions/actions in the same way every time, whereas a bot varies its execution based on information derived from the game.

    I think it is clear to everyone that bots are not allowed under any circumstances. There is no question about that.

    However, "blind" macros, as defined above, do have certain legitimate uses, such as facilitating various character specific role-play mannerisms, and improving ergonomics (including preventing associated diseases such as RSI), perhaps working around certain UI-related peculiarities (such as being unable to map the keys freely). See some examples below.

    In regard to the "unfair advantage", of course ergonomic improvements may provide an "advantage", but is it "unfair"? For example:
    • As an archer, I often would like to have a decent way to backpedal using mouselook while stacking my glyphs at the same time. Doing it with forward movement is trivial (by using the "Toggle Auto-Run"), but doing the same while moving back is not practically achievable without using something resembling a "macro"; for example something that would simply map a mouse side button click to an action that sends a "KeyDown" event of the key mapped to "Move Back" (that would be "KeyDown s" by default). Punishable offense?

    A few other examples:
    • Mapping the scroll wheel to Forward/Back movement, so that pushing the wheel forward would make the avatar start running forward, likewise for the back movement (pull the wheel back). If already moving forward, pulling the wheel back would stop movement , and pushing it forward would stop movement if already moving back. The functionality is totally "blind", i.e. no need to get any information from the game itself, so it's not a bot. Ergonomically speaking, very convenient and RSI-preventing. Provides advantage. Unfair? Punishable offense?

    • Mapping the mouse top fin, that moves left/right, to left/right combat rolls (pushing the fin left would send a "double-tap left" to the game, and same for the right side). May provide advantage in certain situations. Unfair? Punishable offense?

    • Mapping a key/button to a macro that
      • 1) presses return (which opens up the chat window, if not already open), 2) clicks the chat window text entry box, and 3) types something like "Greetings, my name is xxx.." Punishable offense?
      • Inserts some character specific mannerism (" %Frown% Really? ") into the chat window. Punishable offense?

    • Press a mouse side button: Instead of the "normal" keymapping behavior of sending a KeyPress event of a specific mapped key (consisting of a KeyDown event followed by a KeyUp event), instead send the events in reverse: KeyUp event followed by KeyDown event. Has RSI-preventing effect, may provide advantage. Punishable offense?

    • When pressing a key, double-clicks a specific part of the screen. Punishable offense?

    • A slightly more advanced version: When pressing a key, double-clicks a specific part of the screen, then waits for a few seconds, then clicks another specific part of the screen. This might be used to avoid RSI when crafting large amounts of stuff (for example, one might have 1500 Animals hides waiting to be refined). Provides advantage, at least in terms of avoiding wrist (and brain!) -specific RSI. Punishable offense?

    I hope these examples suffice to demonstrate that the definition of "macro" probably needs to be elaborated.

    Thank you in advance for clarifying this.


    ps. For the record, I do not currently use anything even resembling macros. Not even RSI preventing ones.
     
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  2. mass

    mass Avatar

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    I read through that entire thread in the announcements and there seems to be a lot of legitimate confusion. I think the Devs sometimes leave policy vague so that they can enforce as they see fit; this issue may actually need detailed clarification.

    In other settings where policy is proposed, the policy makers sometimes pass around a draft of the policy for commentary from stakeholders to determine if the needs are met, to tie up unforseen loop holes, and to ensure clarity and specificity in the policy language. Might be a good approach in this situation.
     
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  3. DarkStarr

    DarkStarr Executive Producer SOTA Developer

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    We are not going to provide specific definitions of what is or is not allowable. We got into trouble by saying we allowed "attended" macros and exploiters went nuts with that loophole so now we have to have zero tolerance.

    We also have to intentionally leave the definition vague to leave us complete freedom to enforce whatever macros are harming the game and not be limited by specifics.

    We apologize for any inconvenience or stress this causes all of you.

    Please be assured though that we are not just going to indiscriminately start banning people who are using multi-button mouses.
     
  4. syxs

    syxs Avatar

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    That is exactly what it is when you don't define a rule it can be used and abused by whoever is in a position to apply it.

    We want a rule that says X/Y/Z is ok but not A/B/C otherwise you have large groups coming in saying this is allowed so long as you don't advertise it and people think it is then everyone does it and you start to ban them for it. You want a community that works with you but you won't give us the tools to do that you give yourself a way to say nope you broke the rule that is so vague that multi-button mouses can be banned.
     
  5. Weins201

    Weins201 Avatar

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    and this is EXACTLY your problem - make the exploiters go away - you where pretty clear long ago that anything done that results in an unbalance of the game is abuse.

    ITYS (a million times over)

    Here is the statement that should have came out - (and Locked)

    Avatars - we have said it over and over that if you find and use an exploit / loophole / (anything) that results in a clear imbalance in Exp, Skills, resources or Economy you have already been warned. This is a violation of out TOS and your account is subject to banning.

    As a result of this happening 23 Accounts over the last week have been terminated. If it was a Guild Leader the guild is disbanded, you can all get together and reform it if you whish but the GM is gone. If it was a land owner that POT is not a PRT and every plot of land that can be placed now has a stone on it and available. Any shops set up remain as is and are now Permanent.

    We have told you before and this will continue to happen.

    If you find an exploit / loophole / (anything) that results in imbalance and do not report it and or use / abuse it your account is subject to being banned.


    TY for your support.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
  6. Crumpets

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    If you have a rule that says X/Y/Z is okay and not A/B/C then you are going to have a group who figure out how to do D/E/F and when they get called on the carpet they will be raising a ruckus because it wasn't specifically stated in "the rules" that you couldn't do D/E/F which may be innovative things not yet thought of. Please don't put the devs in a no-win position.
     
  7. Brass Knuckles

    Brass Knuckles Avatar

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    It is better just to say All and mean all.

    Then let up on some systems stuff like the 20 item stack on the tables. If your super aggressive vrs macros and easy up on the click heavy stuff people will be more receptive.

    Reguardless of your path macros are the #1 enemy.

    Just my .02
     
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  8. syxs

    syxs Avatar

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    No its not a no win position because then they add D/E/F to the not allowed list. That list grows can grow without causing an issue to the ones that are allowed. Its the ALL but we won't ban you if we like you kind of rule that is in place. Because some of the RMT guys know the devs personally then if one of their accounts comes up for review it gets ignored cause they are friends and wouldn't go against the rules and aren't looked into and they keep doing it where someone who is causing issues at a RP event gets banned for a macro but people running the rp event are running nearly the same macro aren't banned. This is the issue you get into because the customer support people are human and might be bias against someone or for someone else.
     
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  9. Traveller13

    Traveller13 Bug Hunter

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    Every computer mouse I've ever used, or owned, is a multi-button mouse-- a left, right, and this fancy one now with a scroll wheel/button. I'm not fretting this new policy, as I'm not doing anything that could be considered macroing/botting. Those of you doing questionable things, stop, and you'll be okay. Continue, and then be shown the door.... Well, you'll know you should have stopped, then.

    Those of you who've exploited and botted your way to level 200 across the board, and now the game is boring and not a challenge. Well, you shouldn't have cheated.
     
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  10. Crumpets

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    D/E/F could be added to the list - but it wouldn't prevent the upset that would occur from not having it on the original list. I have played many MMOs and have been astounded by the cleverness of the hacks and cheats when the folks were caught - so even if X/Y/Z was initially thought to be on the okay list, someone might come up with something that would make it be very not okay. The point being that it is hard to give a black and white list in an area that is so very muddy, gray and changing. The rest of your post I won't address as I don't think this forum topic is the place.
     
  11. Mugly Wumple

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    There's your definition right there. Pretty obvious if you ask me.

    A non-inclusive list of harmful actions would be helpful.
     
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  12. 2112Starman

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    lol. I fully believe in working smarter not harder.

    What I dont understand is people who spend all this time in video games looking for these exploits and spending all this time building scripts and macros in a game.

    If many of these people put that effort into real life... focus'ed on work or making money... They could actually probably make some real money finding these kind of little loopholes in real life... But in a video game where yes you may make a little money if you are selling for RLC.... BUT?

    Go figure...
     
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  13. mass

    mass Avatar

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    My interpretation of this is: if you are using simple macros that protect against ergonomic stress or to simplify some some game actions, continue to do so, but be aware that if you go so far as to obtain an unfair advantage, you will be subject to consequences. I realize that Dev's cannot affirm this conclusion, as it prevents them from enforcing their own definitions, but this is how I take it.

    I don't use any macros, so this doesn't affect me; but I can totally see where the carpal tunnel syndrome people are coming from.
     
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  14. Preachyr

    Preachyr Avatar

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    This position leaves everything open to your interpretation of 'harming the game' or to berek's definition of 'unfair advantage over other players' or to any other dev's interpretation of whatever vague guidelines they decide to judge on.

    This is a bad thing because it opens you up completely to favoritism or retaliation against certain problem members.

    Example: I set up a macro to harvest water. I am at the computer watching but I don't want to keep clicking. I get caught but i'm in good standing on the forums and i've backed at a high level so the GM leaves me alone as not doing anything to harm the game.

    Example 2: I set up a macro on my razer mouse so that with a push of a button I can cast 4 different buffs on myself one after the other instead of clicking them each individually. I am still here at the computer while doing it but i've recently been critical of the devs on the forums and don't have a lot of money into the game. The GM looking at my case decides that shortcutting my buff casting gives me an unfajr advantage over someone who doesnt know how to set up a macro, and i'm suspended or banned.

    An open ended vague set of rules such as this which is so blatently open to favoritism and abuse is absolute ridiculous to have in any sort of online multiplayer game that hopes to have a good population.

    How you can even think that it is a good idea or 'necessary' that you remain vague in order to be able to apply rules as you see fit and based on your mood is not just a little bit wrong, it's downright scary.

    I have a good bit of money into this game, as does my guild, I am generally supportive of the game and the devs but this decision and this reasoning is just downright unconscionable.

    Poor form, Portalarium, poor form.
     
  15. Yakamo LLTS

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    You left out mouses that macro. That is the same thing as a windows based program, except it uses a script tied to an external product which negates detection. That is more blatant cheating then a simple macro

    Many mouse macros use them for casting 4 defense skills, this is an enormous advantage in time consuming casting and its not AFK

    I only play games with pvp and macros like these are never ever tolerated. External device's especially
     
  16. Gaelis

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    I'm sure Devs think most of us are clever enough to know which action on our PC will exploit the game , give unfair advantage against other players or other things like that ( and me too).
    The little amount of others will get a warning right in time now...so for me its better not to list all possible you can think about now because this list never will be complete.Not complete means also exploiters get again the chance to exploit without being punished instantly.
    Its enough damage done already like this so just start to think by yourself.
     
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  17. Tiina Onir

    Tiina Onir Avatar

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    It's a bit hard to feel vary assured of that, when the way you said it makes "MMO-mice" sound like a ban-worthy offence. What about voice-control software (if anyone's used it, it's probably a DISadvantage, but it's still, technically, a macro)?

    Last year when the same topic came up, we had almost the exact same discussion from the exact same people. I feel like the only reason there keeps being a big stink about it is that we don't know what the rules really ARE. Last year it was clear is mud. This year is looking a tad brown, too. If there is no clarification about what the rules are, dollars to donuts we'll be having this discussion again.
     
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  18. evillego6

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    Selling virtual goods for real life currency is a business for some. The time it takes to create a script to run macros that can play for you on multiple accounts completely unattended is well worth it especially in a game that sanctions real money trading. Not a judgement on that decision, but it makes the game a nice target for that sort of behavior.

    Everyone knows it is a small team that is knee deep in development. Keeping up on exploits and the like takes time, something this development team lacks. That isn't to say they aren't trying their best. I'm sure they are. But if I'm someone who can create a bit effectively and I know it's a small team with their plates full and I know that RMT is encouraged, I'm going to take full advantage. There are sites online, including Portalarium supported sites, where one can buy mass quantities of materials. Which is more likely, that they employ dozens of full time players gathering materials throughout the day or they create some fairly clever bots or macros and run those with little or no overhead?

    Portalarium is at a severe disadvantage and I mean that with all do respect. There are people, in fact companies that see a financial benefit to the game. They are outnumbered by a highly motivated group and dealing with exploiters and bots has to be a strain added onto a heavy development process. Again, I'm not being critical. I actually feel bad for their circumstances.

    One thing that the dev team does that I do question is issuing public warnings to those exploiting. Those willing to exploit the game, some for personal financial gain, will simply cease the announced exploit and move on to a new one.

    In August, Richard said "We'll just ban you as soon as we find out, which will be very quickly," he said. "You'll no longer be playing this game. Automatic ban, you're out. That's it." http://www.polygon.com/2016/8/16/12482010/shroud-of-the-avatar-launch-richard-garriott but so far that isn't what we've seen in practice. There was been a few warnings about macroing. Starr said "We got into trouble by saying we allowed "attended" macros and exploiters went nuts with that loophole so now we have to have zero tolerance." It seems Portalarium considered this activity exploiting and it's been allowed to go on for 5 months. Now there are warnings of potential temp bans followed by possible permanent bans on a case by case basis. This is a far cry from the hard stance Richard had early into persistence, at least from the statements he made in that interview
     
  19. GrayFog

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    This is just an crazy discussion.

    Hey comrades, seriously... give me one example of an MMO where a DEV lists EXACTLY which "macros" are allowed and which are not.
    Yes, guess what, you will find "zero". And even if you find one, the list won't be complete...

    All macros are not allowed, it's really that simple, i bet most of you exactly know what kind of macros are just ultra wrong...
     
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  20. TarrNokk

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    Don't you see the advantage you have vs other players when you set up a macro which automatically cast 4 buffs in a row? I see a great advantage in that and should be not allowed.
     
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