Disappointed in crafting, and some other comments…

I am disappointed in crafting, and some other comments…

The idea that I need to figure out the right combinations to make an item vs. having a difficulty to create an item is a bad idea. All you need to do is google everything. Having the crafting stations work like a bag or box with a button is also bad idea. Putting just the right amount of items in a station to make a single item then having to put crafted item in bag, rinse-repeat; is nothing but a time sink, boring… would have been better to make it super simplified like UO, rather than the appearance of a challenge…

But maybe I misunderstand your intentions. If you are making a game for a select few who has little experience with MMO’s then you are golden, but if your intentions are to make a game for the masses, you have a long way to go and should take some ideas from other MMO’s (UO, EQ2, SWG 1st year, Vanguard, FFIVX) and less ideas from single player games.

I read in a different post that resource nods will be limited in the world. Bad idea unless the timers are set to make the player move on from area to area vs. a timer that makes a player be online at specific time intervals in a specific place. The later will allow hoarding and disrupt game play for many others.

 

I'm with you on the crafting... time sink for sure. I gave up on it after about 10 minutes, and actually didn't even explore anything else because I was so disappointed.

 

All of this is all fine and good, but what would you do different?

 

Keep in mind, Darkstarr said this is only the basic framework of crafting and not how things will work in the final game. There will be skill associated with crafting things which may make broken or average weapons which will then need to be repaired to enhanced. There will also be multiple ways to get recipes. Obviously there is nothing you can do for Googlers without randomizing things, but you will not just be able to Google something and do it. You will be required to advance your skills.

This is an alpha and many things are just ways of testing things, and some of those will be stuff in the background you do not see at all that the Devs are monitoring. The end crafting system will be very different than what we see. In fact all that may be the same is the crafting stations.

Of course it is always worth saying this is not a traditional MMO and many people will play single player only. It is also trying to be different than other mainstream markets.

 

This is the exact reason why so many of us supported the Kickstarter. To NOT be like ANY of those

Give it time, its ALPHA. There will be methods for producing larger quantities in the future. Some times things take a little effort, and to not just get handed things is it's own reward. Enjoy, things to come.

 

BUT.. it is like many other single player games so.. take your pick like them or like them...

 

Actually the game examples he gave had crafting systems that are generally loved by a lot of people. Especially SWG and Vanguard. I don't think LB would mind bringing in the subscribers WOW had. That said I'm sure his creative genius is looking at this different and not trying to clone those games. But ideas on what works crafting wise is a good thing and can only help with the success of SOTA.'

Mal

 

We have a WOW, its called WOW....but i digress its your post and your opinion but you dont count for them all

 

IMHO Its a rough design ,many things will more than likely flip flop around a raw concept has to be that ... for example if they allowed us to work with stacks of ore coal to make a stack of ingots it would cause people to just empty inventories on the crafting tables it would be tough to get the idea across that the plan is to figure out the recipe . My guess would be once people have the concept they will streamline the process. adding skills and Failing will then come into play.

 

OK I will add to this as I have time but this is a start…

Crafting stations should be just something you need to be near in order for the specific craft widow to be open, use items in your bags, place crafted item in your bag, have a crafting Q to set up multiple crafts, craft as many of a single item as you have the materials for with one step,
All basic(first tier) recipes should be known, all basic first tier items should be slightly better than same item from an NPC.
Idea different from other games:
Rare recipes for items which have an action associated with it (recipes requiring an item that is not commonly found)
1. cannot know till crafting skill is high enough
2. cannot know until the player has found the component needed for the recipe in the wild for the first time.
3. Learning the recipe requires researching the uncommon component, could have it as a cost of coin to research or (my preferred option) the player must craft an item with the component not knowing the result, and have a chance to fail on the craft and player must use the new crafted item for a set skill increase before discovering what new enhancement the item has and the recipe. (items need to have a use level associated with them either use for so many actions then item is bound or use for so many actions and the specific item has a +1 to action result for the player)

Also, Crafting an item above basic tier should be possible by adding an item crafted by a different crafting skill..
Crafting items above basic tier should have stages which flow right into each other, like set up basic craft, start basic craft, and before basic craft is finalized you have an option to do other things to the item.
Should have a chance of failure when making items above first tier but also have an option to repair or boost item quality to overcome failures..


Did I miss the alchemy, tinker, and fletcher tables?

“no one thing cannot be unlike any other thing”

 

Well I have not mentioned *** and in the post where *** is mentioned the person refers to number of players/subscribers not game mechanics....

 

I pretty much completely disagree with every single idea above except the need for there to be failures when crafting. For the opposite opinion of someone who loved the crafting system in R2, and why and what I would still change, you can read this - https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/feedback-crafting.6245/page-4#post-114666

 

i disagree with all you have to say as well sir, LOL

your idea about changing the recipes form alpha, beta to release,
will not make a difference, nothing challenging about taking items one, two, three, four at a time and seeing if the craft button glows or not and besides that, Google has been invented...
the system as it is (even with your suggestions), is way to simple, with the only difficulty being real time spent dragging and dropping,
even with just adding a failure chance, does not make things more difficult, only takes longer
time sinks are the worst way to add the feel of difficulty to a game...
at least have some action involved with in the intentional lapse of time...

 

I think you will find that many people supported this kickstarter because of UO...

 

Yes didn't notice UO in the list, noted. But I really dont feel the need to argue with you and if you cant realize this is an alpha and the need to chill out and relax a bit, well then, good eve I say!

 

So, I don't understand, it seems your major beef is that you have to experiment and that people can just google and find the same recipes as someone who experiments. Yet the games you mention give you all your recipes so there really is no experimentation. None of them are particularly hard/challenging crafting. Oh, wait, that's not true, there was the Bio-Engineer in SWG year 1. If you wanted to create pets you needed to experiment with DNA and there were no recipes. You could Google pet recipes, but you didn't need to create the recipe exactly to get the same results, which was nice. But that rather does prove and disprove your point. It was by far the least played crafting class because it was difficult. It required thought, lots of experimentation and a very delicate hand and that is not appealing to very many people

So the problem is, you can't have a system too difficult or too simple. Skill should be associated with crafting certain objects with certain skill thresholds for the ability to make certain objects. You also need resource nodes to be timed a bit like maybe Vanguard had a timer on their nodes, or maybe a little longer.

What about gaining knowledge about certain recipes once the threshold is reached, but not all recipes? Say a random selection of 5 recipes or something and then you have to either experiment or trade with another player to get more recipes. This way you can interact with other players (which happens less and less in MMOs nowadays) but doesn't require it since you could always experiment, for those who like that, or google for those who prefer that. There is nothing you can do to stop people from Googling recipes unless you randomize the recipe somehow which is a bad idea. If the point is, give us all recipes because people are going to Google it anyway, I suppose you have a point, but I kind of like experimenting to find things. The only stuff I had to google was things that didn't make sense, like tree bark and flax for thread.

Vanguard did some cool things with crafting, one of which was skill based "mass production". The higher skill you had, you could create 3 or 5 of an object at a time. It's not over the top and a pretty good system. As for nodes, I think everyone is well aware that timing of nodes would be set on a reset of several minutes on a node and not on a world based reset for a specific time. In the beginning, nodes are going to be harder to find as everyone is going to need iron, coal, flax, hides, etc... so the nodes have to be set on some sort of minutes based reset otherwise the first 20 people will be able to jump on nodes and craft and no one else will be able to and all until the world timer reset. All that does is set your game up for failure and I doubt the devs would make such a poor judgement call as that.

 

Exactly what I was thinking Busukaba.

I did however hate the crafting system in SOTA 2 with regard to the following:

• Why do I have to put a single log on the table to saw it up? Surely it should be possible to put a stack on, but only use 1 piece with each press of 'Craft'? The continual split stack/drag single item to the crafting table made for tedious boredom.
• Why do I have to clear every item made as the result of a craft? Why can't I let the stacks of bark/planks/timber build up as I make more. Again, removing the tedium of even more drag and dropping.

Discovering the recipes is fine imo.

Sadly, I was so jaded by the woodworking experience I couldn't even bring myself to try the other crafting skills and logged off. I've never done that in an alpha before...

 

I agree with your points above. I think some of it does have to do with it being pre-alpha. It was more of a "Look at what we can do..." kind of thing but I think the community has to offer suggestions to take it from what should be the base (what we have now) to a finished product.

The problem is the progression in crafting. I thought of mentioning something similar to the first point you make about allowing a stack to be intelligently reduced as per what you're crafting. However, you will need an extra step in the crafting process if you do this. the reason being, if you just plop down 15 boards and a hammer, the system has no way of knowing if you want to make a stool, wardrobe, bench, etc.. Same with smelting, if you put down coal, 10 bars and a sword blade mold are you trying to make a dagger, long sword or two handed sword blade? So perhaps in this process you'd need a list of recipes to come up which are valid with the materials placed and you choose. But I don't know if that's cumbersome or not... might be.

I can't think of a downside right now though to allow for the stacking of completed objects on the crafting table except that right now what's on the table, the system thinks it needs to use in the recipe. If there was simply an output area that would not be in consideration for creating the next recipe, it would be a quick solution to that problem.

 

I am just waking up so will elaborate more when I am more awake and get some work done..
You are wrong sir.. and missed my point all together.. SEEMS you are focused on calling out discrepancies in semantics between single phrases instead of seeing the big picture... re-read what I wrote,
and I kindly ask you to not mix my words to support your ends...

........
my reference to the games I mentioned had more to do with the popularity of the systems, them being MMO's, than the mechanics, although all of them had difficulty in the mechanics without promoting Google... Not going to argue the semantics of SWG with you, but will say you left out the whole picture of that one class you mentioned...

 

I'm so far getting the impression that Crafting will be exactly like UO, if not better. It's actually quite good for first showing IMHO.
+1