Enchantment, anyone?

I just wanted to gauge the interest in an enchanting-type crafting skill, since I haven't seen it brought up. By enchanting I don't mean a spellcaster casting a temporary +1 sharpness buff on a sword or whatever, but a permanent, expensive but slight increase in power or addition of an ability on particular weapons or armor that requires a specialized crafter who deals in enchantment skills and spells.

I think a weapon/armor enchanting group of crafters could be a good economic stimulus and encourage cooperation between crafters. In example, a miner would mine ore, sell it to a blacksmith who would create a weapon, and the blacksmith would sell some of his wares to an enchanter who can add one of a variety of effects (maybe fire resistance, maybe increased attack speed, maybe it glows blue when orcs are near ) and put it on the market. Or, these three crafters can work together to have their own magic equipment store and share profits!

In order to keep the itemization in check, these enchantments wouldn't be exceptionally powerful, but helpful enough to warrant the likely exceptional time, effort and money required, and can help to easily, greatly diversify the equipment in-game. If the enchantment effects are intriguing (and limiting!) enough, there can be an interesting play, particularly in PvP, between the advantages/disadvantages of certain enchantments.

Any thoughts?

 

It came up early on..

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?topic=item-properties-enchantments

though it didn't get a lot of discussion and got buried. You can find the post on page 3.

My personal take on enchanting is that it should require either gems that would hold the enchantment while special materials would have their own lesser properties.. ie mithril being light weight.

 

Hm, so not much interest eh? Now's the time to weigh in, early in development...

I really do think this could add a whole new level to the crafting system. I do think keeping it simple is the best approach, however, and keeping enchantments relatively low on the power spectrum. There shouldn't be anything like making a piece of equipment impossible to break or giving you invisibility or anything like that. It should help stimulate the crafter economy, not hinder it, and it certainly shouldn't be on the level of "this piece of equipment isn't enchanted, so its useless".

 

I wouldn't say not much interest. It's just the nature of forums. Sometimes the posts get buried cause so many people are interested in other things at any given time. Start the right topic at the right time and seen by the right people and you'll get a good discussion going.

The general feeling I got is most people don't want overpowering enchantments. I'm also in that crowd. I shy away from getting into too many specifics on the subject though and I think the lack of information tends to slow down the conversation also. We don't know what kind of enchantments we're getting.. we don't know how the skill trees are going to look etc..

Personally I prefer a more subtle approach to these things. I think flashy magical effects are over done and over rated.. especially where enchantments are concerned. Granted fx need to be a little flashy it's a sort of visual reward to the player.. but I don't want folks being able to tell exact what enchantments are on my sword just by looking at them.

 

I'm not too sure about enchanting actually. Especially as an economic device. Also I think one shortcoming of many games is a skill/class limit which would then force you to create additional characters as mule crafters and so forth. I play a few MMOs at the moment, maybe around five and only one regularly. In each MMO, I only play a single player despite the advantages additional characters would afford me.

That being said, there could still be a place for some type of enchantment system, maybe just a bit more in depth and far less superficial.

I'm obviously not a hard-core PvP player, most of you will know this by now of me. So I can't come at it from that angle either.

What interests me is character and story depth, if enchantment could be worked to that level it would be nice. A few points, if I were making a game myself...

1. Limit the amount of enchanted items in which you can equip to a character to a single item. You will bond with it, appreciate it.

2. Enchantment check system for a %success %curse %fail, if you fail your enchantment it could either destroy or curse the weapon(no ill-effect to the player). People make mistakes, even people with a mastery in something, lets reflect this simple fact.

3. Cursed items would be more rare and interesting. A cursed item will be a success, possibly even a success beyond that of a normal success but it is still cursed. What curses things? Well I don't know, could be the in-game Virtue system if there is going to be one, and that system could dictate where you need to go and how you need to remove a curse from an item.

4. Any item which receives a curse or a success will remove something from the enchanter's soul and forever bind that item to the enchanter. Who doesn't remember the Black Sword(Shade Blade) in Ultima VII? If you removed the sword, it would re-equip itself. The process of creating it and it's effects post creation and during use made it very memorable and it was a huge step in the right direction for binding a character to a story/task.

5. Furthermore, an item with a curse or success should also "take" part of the enchanter's essence, or soul. I can't define how or what yet without more information from the game. But to gain great power, you should be forced to part with something in the process.

6. Enchanting additional items should not be possible while you currently have one on your person. Since you can't remove it from your person when you have one, that means you must find a way to destroy the item permanently! There should also be a quest or process to get this done, not just a simple right click and throw away.

7. Items can only hold a single enchantment.

I usually don't type this much, you know because of TL;DR, but I guess I'm bored tonight My ideas and play style obviously doesn't suit everyone, actually I am pretty sure I'm in a 5% minority on ideas like this. But you asked!

Av

 

I'm not particularly keen on use of souls or curses.. Curses mainly because I don't really see how they would function in a game. I don't deny that balancing positives with negatives is an interesting idea.

The Blackrock sword wasn't cursed. You will recall that binding a demon's soul to the sword was necessary by fusing the gem the demon was trapped in within the sword. It wasn't really even an enchantment. The demon's power made the sword usable and it was the demon's power that did everything else. When the demon was released.. so to went all the powers.

 

No, I did not mean to link my curse idea to the Black Sword's Function in Forge of Virtue directly. The Black Sword was certainly not cursed and I only meant to compare the fact that you could not just simply throw it away.

How a curse could function based on above; an item is enchanted. It get's cursed, which means it takes your power and give's you nothing back. You quest to remove the curse from the item, thus granting you it's intended benefit and possibly a little bit extra.

As for the word soul, I used it for commonality as most people should understand my meaning. What is to be in the story or in the game who can say at this point, but you should have to sacrifice something to get something. I am not suggesting that what you get back is less than what you put in, not at all. I mean I would be up for that, but not many would.

 

That might cross into the dangerous territory of gear reliance, though. The idea is to keep the crafter economy going. Enchantment wouldn't let your weapon deteriorate less quickly, if anything, it would make it wear out quicker, causing you to go and buy more weapons, encouraging enchanters/miners/blacksmiths to continue working their craft. Curses that forever bind a weapon are an interesting mechanic, but perhaps only if it will still break, and if it does gimp you, only in a way that doesn't prevent you from playing the game.

A sword that prevents you from speaking, for instance, or saps your magic power, or makes you slower (but do more damage) could be interesting.

 

I'm not altogether opposed to the idea over 5 years. But don't think we need it now. It seems like a solution to a problem we don't have yet.

 

Well, I am not sure I said it was perma-bind when cursed. Cursed or not, you would still have to complete a quest to destroy the item before you could remove it from your person and enchant a new item. Point being that no, you aren't stuck with it for life.

Crafting interests me. Enchanting interests me, anything like that is pretty cool stuff. What is not cool stuff is game economy systems and I couldn't ever get in line with any skill which is used to "keep the crafter economy going."

Again, as I have said I would be the 5% minority here, I am not looking to get "rich" with in-game currency so it can just pile up in my account. I'm looking for an interesting, story driven game with character involvement. Which is exactly what I think we will end up with, so no worries there.

Also, not really understanding a solution to a problem we don't have yet? There are no problems and nobody has any idea what we truly need or not because there is no game yet. These are ideas for the game which is under construction, and there is certainly no harm in discussing ideas for the present or the future.

 

I really didn't like enchanting in WoW. To be honest though, I don't like any of WoW's crafting/gathering styles, gathering was pretty bad in all of them, I don't know why they felt the need to make every crafting skill give you some sort of bonus not available to other crafting. I have a near max level enchanter and I still didn't like it, It was more born out of necessity since I didn't want to pay a ton of money at the AH for things like a crusader enchantment that really wasn't that difficult to obtain, not for the price being asked.

Anyway, enough ranting about that. I do like the concept of enchanting equipment, I'd prefer to see it on a magery type skill tree, an ability that can be used out of combat for a permanent bonus. Each enchantment should be a small bonus to damage for weapons, AC (or whatever they use) for armor. Jewelry can't be enchanted (small items just break under the power).

You can enchant the weapon or armor multiple times, but each time you do you risk either breaking it or removing all enchantments from it. That is the big risk, enchant a rare/good item and you might lose it. It could be 99% of the time the item accepts the first enchant, and by the 3rd good chance of removing all enchantments and a 50/50 shot of breaking it, and the 4th enchant would be like 90% chance of breaking it.

so if you manage a quadruple enchant on something it has like a +4 bonus to damage/ac. (or whatever would be relevant for the risk/reward/not too overpowered) So a rare item with that will be ultra rare and will be very valuable.

Another option instead of breaking it would be each enchant makes it lose maximum durability, or that could be a chance of occurring on top of breaking risk. 50% chance on all enchant levels to lose some % of max durability.

Beyond that skill might be the skill to add lightning/poison/acid/fire/ice damage(or resist) to an item, only 1 such affect, requires some items that are based around the type of damage it adds that are rare drops.

I'd like it if these were in a magery type skill tree.. so any spellcaster can dive into it, making it a non-rare ability. As I'd see more people wanting ot be blacksmiths/tailors/leathworkers/carpenters rather than enchanters.. even if they are named Tim.

I like Avataracid's idea of cursing items, i'd like to see it as a negative effect balanced with a more positive effect than normal. (-3 dex but +5 str style, -10% ice protection +25% fire protection)

 

Oh i'd view the proper cost for doing an enchant as being MP + time. such as putting it on a cooldown for 5-10 minutes. Although removing the time requirement would be fine since the risk of breakage is a deterrent for throwing enchants all willy nilly.. On the other hand, how many low level items will there be floating around with a full 4x enchant on it making it fairly powerful for a new player starting out if there wasn't time constraining people from doing that?

I'd also like to see higher intelligence giving a better chance to enchant without breaking. and lower intelligence a better chance to remove all enchantments (the ultimate curse remover).

Cursed items being unremovable without lifting it reminds me of Dragon Quest.. Which is fine, it's a fun mechanic, especially with things like the double edged sword that would inflict damage on you but was powerful... so you could be low on mp, low on health and want to stop using it but you cant hehe.

So there are other curse effects you can do, greatly reducing stats, impairing your movement speed, inflicting damage to you over time or with each attack. so there could be some fun risk vs reward items floating around out there.

 

What is it about people that they become enamored with their gear? Love of gear is the root of all evil, and is a corrupting influence in MMOs. I would prefer that SotA allow me to perfect and enhance my character rather than my gear. In SotA, it should be the Virtues that determine your worth, not your gear.

 

Owain I agree with you in a way. That is why I would limit the amount of enchanted items owned by your character to single item. Questing to get it, maybe allow you to name it on success and build a story with the item.

It would in no way be a super weapon, sorry Mishri but enchanting something four times is also a bit overkill lol. I am also opposed to skill based clickers in the gui with timers, so I wouldn't link that in any way to enchantments. Or anything other than the delete key on the keyboard.

Hell, who knows maybe you will be able to stick your sword in the ground and an apple tree will pop up in it's place. Maybe when things are enchanted, a low level AI is attached to it. Maybe it only likes to help you during twin full moons, or during noon, whatever. The canvas is empty guys, paint it with something.

 

@Owain : Its the carrot on the stick. What percentage of people need that carrot to keep them playing?

Gear has become that carrot. In UO I didn't need gear to keep me playing because the game offered so much more. Now, MMO's don't have the creativity or depth to keep people playing beyond using gear as the carrot. Its their easy way out.

They have taken out exploration, dumbed down crafting, lands are empty and void of substance and all they have left is the gear.

Hopefully, we won't need to depend on gear as our carrot here.

 

Yeah, I think one enchantment is enough. I don't mean enchantment as a way to create "perfect" gear, or even "competitive" gear, but just another way to customize it, and certainly not as a pathway to overpowered equipment. I also wouldn't like it if the only enchantments were "+1 damage" or "+1 armor" or even "+1 fire damage", but really interesting affixes, generally situational, certainly nothing to where you are constantly at an advantage.

I'm talking about low-powered things like a "Lichbane", giving you a small increase to damage against undead, or a "Gemhunter", making your equipment pulse when a gems and jewels are nearby. Ultima Online had magical items too, did it not? This is simply allowing players to craft (relatively low-powered) magical items themselves, allowing 3 different crafting specialists to work together to stimulate the player-driven economy.

Owain, this isn't about becoming enamored with gear (I think this the 40th time I've read that phrase), this is about adding an extra interesting layer to the gear crafting enterprise. If ore mining is the wheat and sugar, and blacksmithing is the oven, then enchantment could be the frosting on the cake.

AvatarAcid gets it. The more I think about the "failed enchantment" curse idea the more I like it... Hmm...

 

Gear was still a carrot in UO. I wanted magic weapons in UO more than anything, before trammel even came out. GM crafted weapons/armor were the gateway to getting the magic items I wanted... I started with vendor bought plate on my warrior, moved on to GM crafted and never did get a good set of magic plate I think I got a plate gorget that was really good and that was about it.. until i played again later around 2002-2003.

UO and every other MMORPG has done that, and for good reason. What is the purpose otherwise? constant improvement in all aspects of the game, from skills to levels, stats, gear, crafting, etc. You need a little bit of it all to appease the people who play.

I have played Muds that had that multiple enchantment method in it and it was really fun. Get something difficult/rare and your first one you only enchant once out of fear... ocne you get a second you try for more and hope you don't break it in the process.. One thing you could do was dual wield, but the offhand had to be lighter, well if you disenchant it with a failed enchantment you could then use another spell to lighten the item so you could dual wield the same weapon. So it was a status thing to be able to dual wield the same item (and powerful, since there was a weapon that was +100 mana, and the next best shield or offhand was only +35mana or something like that).. they also had brilliant enchantments that double the bonus, so getting a double brilliant enchanted version of the best sword was hard/expensive and took a lot of attempts. You could take my proposed system to a max of 3 enchantments. This mud had no limit at the time. I think I had some claws that had like +12 damage on them.. which was huge.

So it also becomes a gear sink in addition to the durability loss mechanic (Although in the mud there was no durability, so it was the only gear sink)

I don't think it was overkill, it made enchanting fun, and it wasn't overpowering at all.. it was just a minor boost to help a bit, you were slightly more powerful with them, you could kill a few more things before needing to stop to rest/regen.

 

@Sir Mishri : Sure, there was some gear to be had in UO, but did they keep introducing a new gear set / gap every 3-4 months? As you stated, there are other ways to keep people playing beyond gear and other ways to improve upon your character beyond gear.

 

My point is you're creating a gear race when you don't need one. Maybe I only need to have "rusty", "normal", and "shiny" versions of chainmail to exist to keep people wanting more. If at some point we're stuck with the whole world having shiny chain and we need a new gear tier so that people now only covet "magic", then we do. But we're not there so why create the problem?

I guess I like the thought that magic is exceedingly rare. That people would be really happy to just get higher quality items without even needing magic be a part of them. To me this makes high quality crafted good more sought out and better. Two expansions from now, you can add enchanting, gem socketing, rune inscribing, etc.

I understand people wanting to always improve themselves. But I'd rather drastically slow down the "tiers" and I'd rather not have stats come with better gear. Perhaps "better" gear has a higher durability...or perhaps it needs to be polished and maintained more.

 

I also prefer a 'low magic' world but that just isn't going to happen here. Not with probably a majority of the players having at least some spell casting ability and most of those players are going to want magic items of some nature.

I think we can all agree that we don't want an overpowered system. Power inflation can be as bad as anything else. From what I've heard so far the devs are of the same mind on this. It won't matter how powerful you become, certain creatures (ie dragons) will still crush you like a bug if you try to take them on by yourself. I'm confident there will be an upper limit on power. So long as things are kept that way I'm not going to worry about it.

As for this one enchanted item per character goes.. I don't see how that could be explained in the story. One enchantment per item I can understand. That would simply fall under the laws that govern magic in the world.

I really like the idea of enchantments that don't provide you a power boost at all but are more like utility enchantments. The afore mentioned gem hunter enchantment for example.. or going back to Ultima the helm of light was always a favorite of mine. UIX had Sentri's trousers (whatever they were called) that allowed you to jump higher. Perhaps a helm of night vision. Things of this nature.

It terms of weapons RG seems to be fond of the idea weapons acquiring power through use. ie slay 1000 orcs, get a bonus vs orcs though I believe this should be limited weapons made of special materials or in the very least "GM" quality items.

The best way to guard against needing more and more 'tiers' of weapons and armor is proper game balance and a big part of that job will fall to us in a few months.