EXP system breaking balance in PVP

Discussion in 'PvP Gameplay' started by Blink, Dec 19, 2016.

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  1. MrBlight

    MrBlight Avatar

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    I didnt realize that the oracle was level dependant.

    Your saying high level guys can find you in pvp, but you cant find people your level? Do gankers come with a special radar?
    Pvp in low skull areas. Others are doing it. Its not ideal by any means but not impossible.

    And no you said youve been leveling since release. And your breaking 40s.
    I said that it takes less thn a week to get to 80s with pretty casual play.

    As elaborated on my 2nd post.

    Oh and lastly. Did i claim pvp here is better then other mmos? Nope.
    Just pointing out that the level dependant = win argument is pretty weak in SoTa.
     
  2. MrBlight

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    Lol nope thats unheard of.
    Its all level dependant. Theres no way skill or strat or build adjustment has anything to do with it.
     
  3. Alrik Doom

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    "Reality is the guys who abused alot of xp buggs.."

    Please stop with the assumptions of ill gain, it has been said so much and players unjustly accused when in fact the system was working as intended and players min/max it for what it was presently designed to offer! Facts are players will always call foul when they see other players exceeding there own game play!
     
  4. MrBlight

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    Except.. there was quite obvious skill / exp abuse.
    Using a knowingly broken mechanic to exploit an unfinished game to exceed the intended exp / h thought possible or intended.

    Props to them for abusing it, but it was abuse.
    Some . Not. All.
    But to think there wasnt? Thats naive.
    And was i naming names? Nope.
    Do i know some who even explained and showed how its broken and how to get just under a gm an hours worth of exp? Yep. Lol.
     
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  5. Gix

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    That's not what I'm saying at all. You used the word "competitive", the Oracle has nothing to do with this. You CANNOT be competitive unless you're at level 80 with some of your skills. You also said so yourself but the thing is that you're okay with it and you use the "it's an MMO" as an excuse.

    I'm saying that there's no way for me to identify whenever or not my target is of the same level as me. It's like playing with people with smurf accounts. You can't tell if:
    • You suck.
    • Your build suck.
    • Your opponent got lucky.
    • Your opponent is too powerful.
    The issue with the whole system right now is that you HAVE to be at least level 80 so that you can eliminate at least one of those possibilities.
     
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  6. MrBlight

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    Except no. You can tell from
    : gm count
    : health level
    : focuse level
    : skull zone they are in.

    If your blindly running in at someone, no your rolling the dice other then those 4 points.

    And my other point is to eliminate that stuff by hitting 80 in things, is less then a week to do if ure playing casually. So i dont hve much sympathy for someone unwilling to hit that competitive point, then complain someone else has 2000 hours and has a level advantage.

    And yea PvP is an MMo feature.

    And even if someone is running 99 in everything to hide thir gm count.. then yes your right.. they have an advantage over you.
    Unless your willing to put basic time into character progreasion and hit 80 in things to be competitive.
     
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  7. Gideon Thrax

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    It only takes a second to examine a player, just looking at their stats you can (reasonably) determine where the buffs are and what type armor you're going up against.

    I've also learned there are more than few players locking skills at 99... Most of the players with ridiculous numbers of GMs are strictly PVE right now.
     
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  8. Alrik Doom

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    You must be joking?

    And you believe so with the assumption that I'm playing the game the wrong way?

    If you have been playing since persistence and still have not built one skill past 40, then yes, it would be more than fair to say, you don't know how to play this game!
     
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  9. Gix

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    • How?
    • How?
    • How?
    • That's only giving you a general idea.
    Is there some sort of character scanner a-la Dragon Ball Z that I'm not aware of?

    PvP isn't MMO exclusive.

    I don't care about how much time the other dude spent to be at whatever arbitrary level he managed to get. What I care about is being able to participate and have some glimpse of a chance to defeat my opponents.

    I'm not asking for your sympathy, I'm asking that the devs make adjustments so that players like me (who WANTS to PvP) can actually enjoy their time PvPing.

    You're basically saying to me: "the game's fine, you're obviously not playing the game right, PvP isn't level dependent but you need to be in the 80s to do it and if you're not already in the 80s you're just unwilling".

    So tell me, wise one... how do I play SotA?
     
  10. Cinder Sear

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    Press 'n' to enable the mob/other avatar's nameplate lol! Or right-click and examine? :p
     
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  11. Lord Andernut

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    A) 22-48 = 35 average damage (not counting resistances)

    B) 23-51 = 37 average damage (not counting resistances)

    So in case B every hit, on average, does 2 more damage. It doesn't sound like much, but it is 5-6% more damage with no resistances taken into account.

    This is not taking into account that leveling up all your skills increases your attunement, and also there are passives in the magic trees that will increase your effectiveness, and you will have more hps/focus and regen etc. So it's hard to evaluate this in isolation.

    But ignoring all the ways that you will increase your offensive abilities in the case of B, and assume it is only the one skill that has been increased and your outpid damage is now an average of 2 damage per hit, you also need to consider resistances.

    I don't really know how the resistances work with magic that well - I believe you resist a percentage of damage, as opposed to having a damage threshold to be overcome. When you look at physical resistance you have avoidance, resistance, and a maximum % of a hit you can block.

    To illustrate why the resistances are important I'll use some bad napkin math in a few examples.

    Case 1) If you do 35 damage per hit and your opponent resists 30 damage, then you do 5 damage per swing.
    If you do 37 damage per hit and your opponent resists 30 damage then you do 7 damage per swing.

    Still just 2 damage, but that 2 damage per hit represents a 40% increase in damage on every hit.

    Case 2) You do a range of damage - let's say 1-60. Half your hits don't break the threshold, the other half are doing 1-30 damage. In this case average damage isn't going to tell you a lot because your average is 30.5 damage, but you don't hit the average. In 10 hits 30.5 damage per hit means 5 damage. But in 10 hits where 5 hits do 1 damage and 5 hits do 60 damage you have done 150 damage. So damage range matters. It's better to have a skill that does a lower average damage but has spikey high hits that overcome a high resistance.



    Magic is more complex though with resistances. I don't know the math not having sat there and looked at it.

    There's your attunement vs an opponents attunement, so if they have 150 attunement and you have 100, that's going to impact the damage you deal in a real world situation vs what your character sheet says. There's passives that increase the damage they deal vs your damage dealt. There's also resistances that come into play.

    Bad Napkin math time again which will be wrong in some cases.

    Player A (Very good)
    Good Damage (Base)
    Good Attunement
    Good Passives that increase damage
    Good Passives that reduce damage taken
    Good Resistance

    Player B (Very very good)
    Better Damage (Base)
    Better Attunement (Surrounding Skills)
    Better Passives that increase damage
    Better Passives that reduce damage taken
    Better Resistance


    Let's say that player B who is very very good is 5% better in each category of effectiveness:
    (Also a question - if I have 100 Attunement and my opponent has 150 Attunement, does that bring me down to 0 Attunement and them down to 50? How does your attunement vs your opponent's Attunement affect things?)

    Player A Outputs 50 damage.
    Multiply by 1 for Good Damage. Multiply by 1 for Good Attunement. Multiply by 1 for Good Damage Passives.
    Then Divide by 1.05 for opponents Better Attunement. Divide by 1.05 for opponents Better Passives. Divide by 1.05 for opponents Better Resistance.

    Player A hits player B for 43 damage on each hit.

    Player B Outputs 50 damage.
    Multiply by 1.05 for Better Damage, 1.05 for Better Attunement, 1.05 for Better Damage Passives, 1.05 for Better Attunement.
    Then Divide by 1 for opponents Good Attunement, Good Defensive Passives, Good Resistance.

    Player B hits for for 61 damage on each hit.


    If you take Max Health for Player A = 500 and
    5% higher Max Health for Player B = 525 (and someone who is level 120 in all categories vs level 100 in all categories probably has a much higher health difference than 5%), that translates to:

    Player A kills Player B in 13 hits.
    Player B kills Player A in 9 hits.

    This is an illustrative example how being 5% better in every category can translate to a very large difference overall. This is also ignoring Focus Regen/Health Regen/Critical Hit Chances/and other stuff. that come with higher skill levels.

    I'm very happy to have someone more mathy that knows how things work show how wrong I am, or refine this bad math using examples of 120 vs 100.


    Suggestion 1: At most: The super high level players should be at 5-10% better than the high level players. The high level players should be 5-10% better than the players who play a lot of time for around 6 months.

    Suggestion 2: (My original thoughts on an open leveling system): Being a really high level player should have more choices, more decks, more ability to respond to particular PVP builds and different PVE content. Having a wide variety of choices should not mean that all of your choices are 25% more powerful than everyone else's.
     
  12. HogwinHD

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    As a pvper and one of said "high level players" i have to whole heartedly disagree with the Op, you were the one who took 3 months off the game, which inevitably allowed people to surpass you in both level and skill. The fact is, pvp is all about strategy and skill, i k n ow this to be true, because i fought someone 20 levels below me, and he destroyed me, simply because he knew how to build an effective deck, and he was level 84 i think, now, you think about the amount of exp i have on him. Didnt seem to help me against him did it. To be good at pvp you have to put the effort and the work in, not complain and refuse to grind to get yourself to a point were you feel like you can be effective.
     
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  13. MrBlight

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    Top part is just stupidity. Click on them. Its not rocket science. If you dont know how to size up an opponent before hand, consider asking for tips, instead of assuming its impossible.

    And im saying that with the small population and the rate of which CURRENT PLAYERS HAVE GONE 80 makes you competitive.

    Of coarse you could read the part about low levels and people in 10-60s in skills also being flagged.. but that would just be to easy.
    Population is low. We dont have a steady stream of players coming in. That being said i KNOW theres people in 40s pvping. Hense my ( oracle level requirement comment ).

    You chose not to play even close to average if your not past 40 skill. And because its a small stream of new players ATM , yes you will hae problems finding new people flagged. But to claim its impossible is simply not true.

    People claim the strong prey on the weak. Then complain they are considered weak. Then refuse to ackowledge they could fight the other people also considered weak.

    Go run some instances your level flagged. I see plenty of people on day 2-10 of sota and being flagged.

    Oh and bonuse tip because you called me wise one.
    Next time you fight someone and die, whisper them and be nice. Ask them where they are at skill wise or adv level. Most will nicely tell you so you can get a feel for what you can do well againsy and what you cant.

    Also curious how pvp isnt a multiplayer feature?
     
  14. Alrik Doom

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    I feel the same way about pvp now!
     
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  15. Gix

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    Take a few minutes to ponder on why I had to ask in the first place.

    Who's "they"? I certainly never claimed this.

    This is the current leveling curve for skills:
    1- useless -40 - practical - 80 - competitive - 100+

    EVEN IF getting to 80 was super quick and painless (it's not, get over your high horse), WTF is the point of the 79 levels prior to it?

    All I got was the "get good" response. Guildies only tell you what build to run with so that's no good either.

    Or is THAT the "correct way" to play, then? Flavour of the month builds? Camp the same mobs day in and day out? Casting buffs on oneself, lighting yourself up like a Christmas tree. PvP with nothing but account-bound items and breaking all item stacks into individual items?

    Should I use a gustball too, then?

    Is THAT the "correct" way to play? Will that increase my XP pool? Are you kidding me?

    Hence my comments on how horrible the system is. If SotA featured better mechanics & rules of engagement, you'd have more people participating in PvP... me being one of them.

    I'm saying that the point of entry is TOO HIGH and you are trying to argue... using population and my ability (or lack of thereof) to play the game as your arguments? Are you serious?

    Other games (including MMOs) do it way better. I even gave you a list explaining why that is when you argued that SotA was an MMO.

    You said "MMO" previously.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
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  16. Gideon Thrax

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    "Casting buffs on oneself, lighting yourself up like a Christmas tree. PvP with nothing but account-bound items and breaking all item stacks into individual items?"

    This is exactly how I do it. It's the smartest way to get into PVP ... and the only way a casual player should try out PVP. Anyone doing otherwise is taking unnecessary risk. There is no reason to come out of starter gear until you've built up your skills (including innates) well into the upper levels. I would argue that until you start hitting walls you shouldn't even bother with advancing your armor or weapons beyond starter gear.

    doesn't suffer max dur - saves money and time
    doesn't get looted - saves money and time
    doesn't look like everyone else in the game (epic cloth plus fairy wings or epic plate)
     
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  17. Stundorn

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    Never read a more insulting statement in this forums.
    I know a player who plays since last wipe or longer but most of the time does her roleplay and is less caring about levels and numbers.
    I am also very lowlevel. 1 skill 80, but no more using poles. 2 skills 70 and all the Rest ist from 40 to 60.
    Playing short after persistance and very casual.

    Your view is unilateral as you think your point of view is vital to everybody or he or she is something doing wrong.
    I dont feel i am doing wrong about the game.
    I enjoy it!!!

    But i avoid pvp, no roleplay matters :D
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
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  18. Yakamo LLTS

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    I know many people including myself who have gained 10 gms in 2-3 months of game play. I have killed the top players a few encounters, maybe like 10-20% but I kill them.

    I may not have a life, but i WORKED damn hard at my leveling and I dont want to be punished for playing hard.
     
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  19. Gix

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    To me, that speaks volumes on the "quality" of the design. That's not a game I'd want to PvP in, sadly.
     
  20. Yakamo LLTS

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    Actually we pvpers need to pray for pvp, we don't get it often at all. Sota very much so caters to the PVE player and non said nerfs to pvp happen every release. Its a problem
     
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