Fix the Sky Rant

Discussion in 'Quests & Lore' started by Bowen Bloodgood, Jan 13, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

    Messages:
    13,289
    Likes Received:
    23,380
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caer Dracwych
    @Chris @DarkStarr @RichardGarriott

    First, sorry to keep tagging you guys twice in two days but...

    To start.. I'm extremely disappointed that the devs (as of the last hangout) seem to think that the sky is "working as intended". The sky is an important part of the game and I assume it's important to Richard to get it 'right' and so.. I'm officially making a stink. And I'm going to keep making a stink until at least the basic issues sink in.

    I didn't put all those hours figuring out the sky and its issues to let it slide. Now I acknowledge that a lot of my suggestions aren't critical.. but there ARE a few things that most definitely need fixing.. that is unless it's intentional that major events literally can't be witnessed without Darkstarr's Moondial.

    And to be clear.. Richard.. when I talk about 'fixing' the sky I'm NOT talking about deviating from a geocentric system.

    Major Alignments
    The biggest issue.. which I just eluded to.. is the timing of major planetary alignments.. all of which happen at noon.

    If all the planets involved being in a 'new' phase making them impossible to see during said alignment wasn't bad enough.. it's noon. The sun obscures any event. at best all you can see during these brief couple of minutes is shadow in front of the sun. You want a beautiful sky? You want events to actually be seen? This is not it.

    To complicate the issues.. the hour based orbits mean these events occur over the span of minutes.. or even seconds. If these events are going to have effects in-game.. 2 minutes or less is not meaningful.

    Furthermore.. half the time Deadelus blocks the view of any major event entirely.. even more so since the Daedelus belt stretches across half the sky and everything is on the same orbital plane.

    This is the one major issue above all others that needs real FIXING.. please note the distinct lack of quotes here fellas.

    Constellation Order
    Now the rest of this isn't so critical but it seems obvious to me certain things were intended to be a certain way and aren't. The order the constellations appear in the sky is one such thing.

    The current order of appearance looks like this..
    Chalice, Tear, Scales, Sword, Heart, Hand | Ethical Hedonism, Bell, Candle, Book, Crook, Ankh..

    This is because they rise in the west and set in the east. Note that this is the reverse of the tradition order.. and also the reverse order to what the planets are in which is.. (by virtue)

    Honesty, Compassion, Valor, Justice, Sacrifice, Honor, Spirituality & Humility.

    No it's not critical but this discrepancy does seem like it is intended for the constellations to appear in the same order as the planets yes?

    The Sun
    The sun pauses for about 5 minutes or so at noon. Is this truly working "as intended"?

    Now if you guys don't want to work out yearly orbital times or any of my other suggestions I've tried to simulate in the Astronomy 301 thread (all of which are for a geocentric system) that is of course up to you.. but at least fix this much.

    But if you don't mind I would appreciate it if you guys at least considered some of the other stuff. Particularly the years orbital times with spinning NB idea. I'm concerned that astronomy events will be far to brief as is to have any real meaning for what ever effect they will have in-game. We're only talking about changing the numbers a bit here.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
  2. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

    Messages:
    13,289
    Likes Received:
    23,380
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caer Dracwych
    Oh and then there's the wierd arrangement of the orbital times.. which are arranged a lot like the constellations currently are.. So from closest to farthest it goes like this..

    Daedelus 7
    Honestly 18 19
    Compassion 16 17
    Valor 12 13
    Justice 11
    Sacrifice 3
    Honor 2
    Spirituality 21 29
    Humility 24 23

    7, 18, 16, 12, 11, 3, 2, 21, 24..
    7, 19, 17, 13, 11, 3, 2, 29, 23

    That's just weird guys. Is this also "working as intended"? Should it not be..

    7, 2, 3, 11, 12, 16, 18, 21, 24?
    7, 2, 3, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29?

    Edited to correct times.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2016
    Jivalax Azon, Net, Tahru and 5 others like this.
  3. Greyfox

    Greyfox Avatar

    Messages:
    1,680
    Likes Received:
    5,942
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA EST
    Wow,

    That is all.
     
  4. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Bowen, I appreciate your attention to detail. I wish I had the same ability to track this stuff down.

    However, I don't really care if it's working "correctly". Whatever it's doing, as long as I can track it and forecast it correctly using a moon dial, that works great for me. I mean, the agriculture system doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of sense either. Pour a bucket of water on a plant twice and it produces more fruit? But I love that simulation.

    We're not creating a second world here. It's all simulated. If you're really trying to say "fix the simulation so that it works better" I'm all for that. But I can't really "see it" until I have a tool that makes it easier for me. Maybe that's the first step the devs should work on, getting the moon dial working so more people can casually understand what's going on, what's working and what's not.
     
  5. Cordelayne

    Cordelayne Bug Hunter

    Messages:
    3,333
    Likes Received:
    11,010
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    So speaketh Bowen BLOODGOD! ;)
     
    KuBaTRiZeS, Tahru, Themo Lock and 4 others like this.
  6. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

    Messages:
    13,289
    Likes Received:
    23,380
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caer Dracwych
    If players can only predict or witness events using a moondial.. then there isn't much point in the sky itself. In the very least you want players to be able to look in the sky and see what's going on. That is probably the single biggest issue, and all they'd need to do is offset the planet orbits by 12 'hours' so they happen at night instead of at noon.

    And I really think they want the sky to be as they really intended. :) Which is up to them to determine of course but I think the few things I'm pointing out is worth mentioning to that end.
     
  7. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

    Messages:
    13,289
    Likes Received:
    23,380
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caer Dracwych
    Please don't start that here. lol But yeah @Chris if you're going to call me that then at least listen to me a little. ;)
     
  8. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    I appreciate that you're pointing these things out. I suspect that the devs are less capable of "knowing" what you're talking about though as astronomy is probably not their "first language". I think the moon dial working would help everyone out, not just players. :)
     
  9. Oba Evesor

    Oba Evesor Avatar

    Messages:
    974
    Likes Received:
    2,188
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    S.F.
    Gotta appreciate Bowens attention to detail too. Not a detail I'm personally concerned with but I want our world to make sense at least! So if takes @Bowen Bloodgood being our own little combo of "Neil DeGrasse Tyson crossed w/Brian Cox" then it should be paid attention to.
     
    Tahru, cartodude, Acred and 5 others like this.
  10. HoustonDragon

    HoustonDragon Avatar

    Messages:
    1,526
    Likes Received:
    4,399
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Very cool that you took the time and effort to track that. I agree, the constellations should be visible by players, and hopefully, maybe have differing impacts and influences depending on which ones are ascendant. I would be curious to see how the New Britannia zodiac compares, since the Virtues from the Ultima games are obviously not exactly the same ones in the new lands :D
     
    Tahru and Moiseyev Trueden like this.
  11. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

    Messages:
    13,289
    Likes Received:
    23,380
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caer Dracwych
    The constellations are visible it's the planets during major alignments that aren't. And if you look at them.. you'll see they are the virtue symbols of Ultima. The only deviation in that regard is ethical hedonism vs infinity. Even the symbols of the principles Bell, Candle and Book are there. While Order/Virtue and Chaos are new.. They're just appearing in reverse order..
     
  12. HoustonDragon

    HoustonDragon Avatar

    Messages:
    1,526
    Likes Received:
    4,399
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Perhaps that's due to the Virtues being forsaken, though, due to the shattering of the moon :D

    (Or bad programming :)
     
  13. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

    Messages:
    13,289
    Likes Received:
    23,380
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caer Dracwych
    I do think they intended to be not 'reversed' but it isn't really a signiifcant issue. But it is one that will constantly annoy me personally. :)
     
  14. Katrina Bekers

    Katrina Bekers Localization Team

    Messages:
    2,793
    Likes Received:
    7,826
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Kópavogur, Iceland
    Bowen was thrown a challenge gauntlet when Richard said he was surprised nobody already figured out the astronomy system.

    The gauntlet has been taken, the challenge accepted, and gloriously completed.

    Now, the ball is in the other field. Will be the challenger accept the counter-offer?

    *munches on orbital popcorn*
     
  15. HoustonDragon

    HoustonDragon Avatar

    Messages:
    1,526
    Likes Received:
    4,399
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    I'm personally hoping it's a Shadowlord/U9 columns type thing with the astronomy system. Certain spells/effects are enhanced with this constellation apex, these monsters are more powerful/aggressive with this one in retrograde, etc. It would also be interesting if they affected gathering components as well depending on what season, time, constellation, etc were present :D
     
    Moiseyev Trueden likes this.
  16. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

    Messages:
    13,289
    Likes Received:
    23,380
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caer Dracwych
    What's that about the obsidian forge? ;) If it's just the constellation involved that could work as they are each in position for 26 hours every NB year. But planets passing through their respective constellations are mostly very fast and most are minutes or even seconds at a time. Which is one of the reasons I like a spinning NB w/ orbits taking 'years' instead of Earth hours. Since planet/constelltion events would last a full Earth day instead of a minute or two.
     
  17. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

    Messages:
    5,884
    Likes Received:
    11,033
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    Beyond Bowen's beautifully written (and no doubt extremely accurate) OP, here's the points that stick in my mind so far:

    The Baron Drocis has a good point about the moondial, but Bowen has countered with a better one - regarding use of the moondial vs using the sky itself.
    Given that celestial "events" are going to have terrestrial "effects" - and given that some of these events don't last long at all - and given that we can't carry moondials around in our pockets - we NEED to be able to watch that beautiful sky that is currently evolving in order to notice an event that is coming soon.

    I'm an old man but I spend 90% (often more) of my time out in the "wilds" away from my moondial, and it's a given that I'm likely to forget to "check the moondial" prior to venturing out.
    So, I'll be needin' that sky to remind me what's been and what's coming.....

    And Baron, your point here:
    is exactly why @Chris would do well to open the channels of communication a bit wider here, IMO.

    Swear Bowen to secrecy and give him a conference call directly with the dev(s) involved in building our celestial systems.

    That's what I'd do anyway......;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
  18. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    I think we do too much of that already. I find the community often does a good job handling that responsibly, however there are occasions where people begin to flaunt their "authority" as a way to push down opinions they don't agree with. I'm sure Bowen would do fine, but any of these communications I hope would remain non-public.

    There's almost nothing I hate more than listening to a player tell the community that they know it all because they "talk to Chris all the time". It's not a productive environment to gather feedback, imo.
     
  19. HoustonDragon

    HoustonDragon Avatar

    Messages:
    1,526
    Likes Received:
    4,399
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Well said. I much prefer when it comes from the "horse's mouth" via their official updates, forum posts, or via the telethon info, as there's less chance of confusion or misinterpreting the intended message, especially if they had to go back later and make changes. Keeping it a public and open discussion is a lot more healthy for everyone's input, imo.

    As @Chris and @DarkStarr said "Don't lawyer me, bro!" :D
     
    Moiseyev Trueden likes this.
  20. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

    Messages:
    5,884
    Likes Received:
    11,033
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    Agree completely about not having a few people that have Chris's "ear" - to the exclusion of the rest of us.... however....
    I too am sure Bowen would do just fine, and since we're talking about having the sky make sense - I (as most likely any of the dev team as you pointed out) would appreciate his expertise in THIS matter.
    It would be input not a demand...
    Hell, hire him as a temp and then it's coming from a dev and it's all good.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.