Flagging and Justice System

Discussion in 'PvP Gameplay' started by robatzen, Jan 8, 2014.

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  1. robatzen

    robatzen Avatar

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    Hello everyone,

    i did not find much information about a possible / planned flagging system in SOTA. Tbh, I am not very good with this forum search thingy. So if there is already a bunch of threads related to this topic, just redirect me and I beg your pardon for starting another thread.

    What do you think a suitable and enjoyable Flagging/Justice System should look like?

    First of all, I have to admit that I was absolutly hooked to UO (till AOS) and in all these years I never found anything even close to the complexity and deep gameplay this game offered. Thats why my questions, ideas and suggestions for a flagging system are pretty much build around the old UO system.

    To invite all the people to the discussion which never played UO I will briefly summarize the original system - that should be easy because this system was pretty simple - nevertheless still very effective! But ofc it was not perfect ...

    ---

    The basic idea is just a straightforward flagging system with 3 different options, represented by the colors blue, grey and red.

    By default everyone is considered as 'innocent' person and is flagged blue color. Certain actions in the world which are against the law, can have an effect on this status. If someone for example loots a corpse that does not belong to him, if someone steals and is discovered, or if someone attacks any 'innocent' (blue) person (or NPC) in the game the status changes from blue to grey ('criminal').

    The 'criminal' status involves that the person is flagged grey color. It is a short lasting temporary status, but the 'criminal' flag will refresh with every newly commited criminal act. If a person which is considered a 'criminal' does not commit another act against the law within a certain time-frame (2min) the status is switched back to 'innocent' and the person will appear blue again to the world. If someone is considered a 'criminal', everyone is free to attack him anytime and anywhere! Attacking, looting, stealing or any other negative action against a 'criminal' person does not effect the own criminal flag.

    As soon as some person inititally attacks a 'criminal' (grey) person he flags himself grey to this person (free to attack) and an additional individual timer is started. Two minutes after the original criminal act the formerly 'criminal' (grey) person will be flagged 'innocent' (blue) to the world again. However, the individual timer for the combatants will refresh with every attack - both persons might appear blue to the world but grey to eachother. If the 'innocent' (blue) person initially started the attack against the 'criminal' (grey) person and dies whilst the individual timer is running, this is not considered as a criminal act! The two persons will again appear 'innocent' (blue) to eachother if there is no attack for a certain time-frame (2min).

    The third status is 'murderer' which is marked by flagging the person red color. It is a longlasting but temporary status which is gained by inititally attacking and killing a certain amount (5) of 'innocent' persons. The 'murderer' status is refreshed with every newly commited murder. And it switches back to 'innocent' if the bodycount drops below the threshold (5 counts) again, whereat it takes a certain time ingame (4h) to wear off one count. If someone is considered a 'murderer', everyone is free to attack him anytime and anywhere! Attacking, looting, stealing or any other negative action against a 'criminal' person does not effect the own criminal flag.

    Same as for 'criminal' status, if someone initially attacks a 'murderer' (red) person he flags himself grey to this person (free to attack) and an additional individual timer is started. The individual timer for the combatants will refresh again with every attack. If the 'innocent' (blue) person initially started the attack against the 'murderer' (red) person and dies within the individual timer, this is not considered as a criminal act!

    Within a guarded area like a city everyone can call the guards on a 'criminal' or 'murderer' person which will result in a one-hit-kill, leaving back a grey or red corpse - so everyone is free to loot. :)

    ---

    Thats basically it, even if there are some more small points like permagrey and statloss, I will not consider them for the moment. It should just be a simple starting point for a further discussion ...

    I have some questions on that and will add some very first thoughts and answers to hopefully start a nice debate. :)

    1) Do you think the original flagging system as described above is generally still feasible? What other system would you like to see?

    2) What are the downsides of the original system? Why and where do you think it needs to be improved?

    - For example Owain made a good statement in another thread that the punishement for thiefs was absolutely inadequate. Thats because after two minutes, as soon as the 'criminal' timer was over, they were considered 'innocent' again. They revived at the town healer and went on stealing.

    3) What extensions would you suggest? Do we need more states? Other states? Harder / different punishment? Different timers?

    - Vjek suggested some excellent extensions in this thread. He calls it Temporary Hex Banishment, which to my mind is a beautiful idea. Dependent on the status, it could be controlled which area a player can enter. Thiefs can be temporarily banned from towns after a certain amount of discovered stealing attempts. Killed faction players could be banned from the battle for 10minutes.

    4) What are your general thoughts how a Justice System should be implemented in a sandbox-like game? Should players be able to change the law? Would you like no system at all?

    ...
     
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  2. PrimeRib

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    No. Karma systems don't work. For all of the reasons which have been repeated ad nauseum over the last 15+ years. And games have long ago stopped implementing them.

    The crux of it is that outlawing PvP, benefits only the outlaw.

    With a consensual PvP system (factions, guild wars, etc.), where everyone is opted in and no karma exists, everyone is on equal footing, the exploits go away, and the silly layers of band aids are unnecessary. It's simply much, much cleaner and removes the toxic nature of the play.
     
  3. Mavro

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    There has to be a justice system, like before a flagged criminal was open to attack from all. Open PvP would allow players to become justice in a way whether it be right or wrong. Towns and major cities should also enforce this with guards. I believe that a criminal should be held to pay for his deeds, I always play one and never have I said my punishment was unjust or not called for.
     
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  4. Blazer Ta'kier

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    I liked the Old UO System. Thieving was a lot of fun in early UO before Trammel ruined it.
     
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  5. Alayth

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    I like the original system, I think it just needs some tweaks, like: meaningful risks (to take care of the low-cost punishment Owain brings up), more safety for those that don't want PvP (make major roads/areas protected by guards, or some such thing).

    One thing I would like to see is more states (stealing different from attacking different from killing, instead of all being criminal until red), and maybe even geographical differences in how you're treated depending on the state you're in. So, like, people in one town won't care too much about thievery (unless you steal from the wrong person?), but you can't just go around attacking people. Other places will allow fist-fights (bar fighting anyone?), but not attacking people with a lethal weapon, and certainly not killing them. Maybe other places just have pretty crappy guards, and if you attack/steal/kill and are good enough at hiding afterwards, you can get away with it completely. I envision these "lax" policies only in really shady places, and for them not to be the norm, but it could be interesting if there was some grey area in how "safe" you were in particular places.
     
  6. deadq

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    The old UO system seemed to work pretty well. I think it was somethink like.... if you were the aggressor and killed someone (5times) you became a "red" a murder if you would. As a red anyone could attack you with no "karma" loss and no kill count. What this did was let you attack someone that was say hogging a hunting area that you felt was yours etc without you becoming a PK.

    You could work off the kill counts over time but as a "red" you couldn't go to certain towns without guards attacking you.

    Looting a corpse was a criminal act that would turn you "grey" for a temporary period of time where you were then under the same rules as if you were "red". I'm not a fan of looting being allowed but if it is going to be allowed if only a non agressors could loot then that would reduce the griefing to some extent. By this I mean that the agressor who is killed in a fight could be looted but a victim of an attack could not be looted. It would make you think twice before attacking the poor guy who is engaged with some mob.

    Of course you attack a helpless and become grey, then die at the hand of the hidden friend of the guy you attacked and they loot your dead body and laugh at you for falling for their trap. But my point is that a group of Reds might terrorize the country side for no other reason than to terorrize and kill but they would be at the disadvantage and possiblity of loseing their belongings without gaining materially from their gank squad antics.
     
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  7. Deathblow

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  8. Bowen Bloodgood

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  9. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

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    UO's order / chaos system worked the best.

    The blue/gray/red system is outdated and boring. People thought it was cool to be red and then complained when they were limited in areas they could not go.
     
  10. Owain

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    Factions aren't the same as a criminal justice system, any more than are guild wars. Those things should be governed by the laws of war, not civil laws governing conduct.
    I haven't seen a better way to manage criminal status, and in a game involving virtues, I think something is necessary. Until a better system can be proposed, the UO system provides a good starting point.
     
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  11. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

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    I never did Factions. I experienced the Order / Chaos system in Trammel where those groups would just start attacking each other on sight. Pretty funny too.
     
  12. Owain

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    Order/Chaos was a faction system. One faction was Order, the other faction was Chaos.
     
  13. Lord Kiron Maedun

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    I think he was more referring to the 4 factions later introduced....
     
  14. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

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    This can better explain what I am talking about:

    http://uo.stratics.com/content/reputation/coguards.shtml


    First notice that the term "Virtue Guard" is no longer used. Since they never really had anything to do with the Virtues, they are now only referred to as Chaos/Order Guards.
    What are the requirements for being a Chaos or Order Guard?
    You must belong to a guild. If you're not in a guild, you'll have to purchase a Guildstone and declare yourself as a single person guild.
    You cannot be a murderer.
    How do I become a Chaos or Order Guard?
    Under a new guildmaster option, a guildmaster can declare his guild to be either a Chaos or Order Guild assuming the guildmaster meets the requirements for being a Chaos or Order Guard.
    Any members who do not meet the new guild requirements when a guild is converted over will be removed from the guild.
    If you are a member of a Chaos or Order guild, and you become a murderer, or lose fame below the requirement (by dying, or by atrophy), you'll be removed from the guild.
    All members of Chaos and Order guilds are forced to display their guild abbreviation. In addition to this, members will have (Chaos) or (Order) after their guild abbreviation.
    If you are a member of a Chaos or Order guild, and you don't have a shield, simply say "chaos shield" to one of Lord Blackthorne's guards or "order shield" to one of Lord British's guards.
    All guild members of the opposite alignment will appear orange, and members can be freely attacked.
    All guild members of the same alignment will appear green, and members can be freely attacked.
    What special rules does the shield have in the new system?
    The shields are no longer required to be worn. (But they are nice shields)
    Shields will not disappear right away anymore. However, they are valueless, so they can't be sold. If anyone tries to equip a Chaos or Order shield who isn't a member of the appropriate guild type, the shield will destroy itself.
     
  15. Bowen Bloodgood

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    yeah.. as stated by Owain.. that's a faction system. Absolutely nothing to do with a civil justice system. It's little more than a way to encourage rampant PvP even despite the cannot murder thing.
     
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  16. Lord Kiron Maedun

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    Oh ya it was a faction system, replaced by a different faction system later.
     
  17. robatzen

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    For the ongoing discussion I would like to point out again what Owain and Bowen Bloodgood said.

    It is important to discriminate between a Flagging/Justice System and a Faction System.
    1. Whereas a faction system is considered as some kind of opt-in pvp system. Where I can "click a button" to decide if I want to join the clash or not.
    2. In contrast to that a flagging/justice system is considered as overall law enforcement system. This is mandatory and I am not able to choose if I want to opt-in to this. If I commit acts against the law (stealing, attacking innocents, ...) there will be consequences which might result in pve-punishment or pvp-situations. But the system is not primarily meant to be pvp-system.
     
  18. rendix

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    1) I think it was adequate and still is to this day.

    2) Newbie players venturing out and dieing early on can be discouraging. The young system UO implemented could be used again from the start this time around perhaps.

    3) I'm uncertain, I think we need to learn more about how SotA will handle death, and expecially how they will handle death of flagged and/or criminal characters.

    4) I don't think players should be able to change the law, I feel that towns and villages should naturally be lawful and with guards, perhaps with an exception or two similar to bucs den in UO.

    4.1) I think that we should remember RG wants seiges to happen at some point, so we could see faction controlled towns. I would bet that there are special town and villages that can be swayed one way or another depending on who the victor is is the aforementioned seiges.

    Semi-off-topic:

    I hope that the 4-faction system doesn't make it this time around. I was certainly more interested in the 2-faction O/C system that was in place in earlier years. With 4 factions you are far more likely to come across enemies at every corner rather than friendlies, having a 2-faction system will make you equally likely to find an enemy as you are to find a friend, which should eliminate some(SOME) of the zerging issues we had in later years.
     
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