Founders, Benefactors, and doing the right thing

+1

I see Starr said:
During our Kickstarter campaign we got numerous requests from the community to allow the purchase of multiple pledges on a single account so that they could purchase pledges for friends and family. We added that ability and included it in the one year grace period at the end of the Kickstarter campaign (https://www.kickstarter.com/project...of-the-avatar-forsaken-virtues-0/posts/448973).

I'm not seeing where this ability was actually announced/promised in that update (it just talks about our ability to upgrade our own pledges for a year) and I'm certainly not seeing where 1) benefactors can upgrade their existing pledge to founder at any time, and 2) referral fees are involved in upgrading existing backers. I don't even think referral bonuses were implemented until late summer..?? So what promise are they talking about..?

 

I agree that the founders doing this are part of the problem, however since Portalarium has already decided that benefactors can be upgraded to founders, they could/should do the right thing and just give benefactors a direct option to upgrade rather than requiring them to use a founder as a middle-man.

 

It was mentioned in the Dev chats during Kickstarter, and was meant for Founders to include family members who may not be able to afford to gift them during the drive. I am not sure there was any specific announcement when the system went live; however, this was about the same time they talked about the payment plan. I think that is the problem as this is something they said they would do, but were not vocal about implementing. So when it became public or well known that's what opened the floodgates.

 

"that those who pledged during our initial campaign (at $25 First Responder tier and above) can purchase further tiers, or upgrade existing ones, at the same price they were available during the Kickstarter campaign, thru April 7, 2014"

There is nothing here about assigning founder status and rewards to other existing backers, and referrals came much later. The actual "gift" option also came much later.

I would be fine with the option to upgrade others at founder PRICING which is what was stated here. That doesn't mean later backers suddenly get all founder rewards, however.

 

The point is with this system they are not "losing" it: they are "giving" it away. There is a difference between having something taken from you and being given the choice to gift it.

 

Correction, some of them are giving it away for all of the rest of us, and profiting from it quite nicely I might add.

Regardless, even so, that doesn't change my points about how doing it this way is screwing over benefactors.

 

Personally, I have no horse in this race, so I don't have the same disgruntlement as some, but clearly, they had to know there would be resentment and negative consequences for allowing this. To your original point, aren't they already teetering on the fine line by allowing Benefactors to basically hop up to Founder access, which was specifically promised as exclusive rewards under the Kickstarter?

I really think the SotA team needs to step up and address this, and do so openly and honestly. The reputation, good faith, and trust of RG and the rest of their team is what brought so many folks into supporting SotA because, no shock here, we DON'T want a repeat of EA-style business ethics (or lack thereof) leading this development.

Fantasy MMOs are a dime as dozen, and there are more failures than successes littering the boneyard. It is ONLY through the trust and support of fans that this game will not only launch, but continue to be a successful market for Portalarium to continue to grow, and create new worlds again as they did in incarnations past.

But that only works if they are above-board and honest with their supporters. There's a right and a wrong way of doing business, and I personally feel this is wrong towards those people who did expect, and deserve, their exclusivity.

 

Then it would be Portalarium actually doing it and it would be even easier and they would probably get even more criticism.

The way it is being done probably means that it is more difficult.....as I said it's interesting how a few founders are competing against each other to get the referral (some doing for less than $45) just to get a few more $ against their own pledge........... personally I find that element quite amusing and perhaps a little pathetic.

My take on this is that Portalarium will be winners, overall there will be a boost of revenue to the development. Ultimately it is fellow founders who have actually aloud this to happen through greed over what in essence is a few $.

 

I agree, it would be easier if Portalarium just did it themselves, but at least in that case it would be more fair and less shady. My biggest issue is the unfairness to benefactors not being able to upgrade unless they work out a backdoor deal with a founder middle-man. I see no reason at this point to not just allow all benefactors the official option of just paying to upgrade, or even just getting rid of the benefactor category altogether, after all most of the meaningful differences between founder and benefactor have disappeared already.

Definitely agree here.

 

To be clear i'm not really for or against it. If it brings in revenue then it probably isn't a 'bad' thing.

On personal levels, it all depends on how people feel and how precious they are over technically being a 'founder'. As for me, I KNOW i'm a founder so the fact that other people are upgrading in 2014 to get additional items doesn't really bother me.

 

So the guy holding the door and driving the getaway car while the others rob the bank is okay, right?

The irony of this dealing with a game (and game series) based entirely around ethicality is both profoundly amusing and horrifying. Ethics is not doing the right thing because the crowd expects it; it's not doing the wrong thing when it's easy and a quick scheme.

The Founders enabling this are being jerks; Portalarium is not helping their case by turning a blind eye, and will suffer the lasting effects of the consequences if they don't address it.

Virtue, people. Live by it.

 

A project such as this has many many decisions. There will always be good ones made and there will also be a few bad ones from a commercial perspective.

One thing is for certain; as this project is being built in the public eye, I can guarantee that everyone who has a vested interest will be upset or disillusioned over one or two of the decisions that have or will be made........that is one of few certain aspects of creating something in public view.

As someone with a vested interest you can either make your gripe known and then carry on........or if you can't stomach it, just walk away.

 

Lori, like you it bothers me, though for myself I'm not entirely sure why. Most of your points resonate with me.

Joe
The Unseen Dragon

 

While true, it only takes a few to make it all happen. I recently found out about a couple loop-holes, and it never even occurred to me to try them or take advantage of them once i knew of their existence.

As someone said early on, it's ironic that a game about virtue has had so much conversation about coveting and people trying to work the system.

Joe
The Unseen Dragon

 

The key point that people in support of the OP are forgetting here is that this game isn't exclusively based around virtues. Maybe this was just DarkStarr's way of introducing chaos into the forums. [light-hearted sarcasm - please no moderation]

 

so how do you expect the gifting program to work? So you are saying if me and you became friends and you decided to gift me a founder account. And if I already had a Benefactor pledge.... then what? Portalarium should just tell me too bad I can't be a Founder because I didn't meet the cutoff? Or should they honor the promise made to Founders who ASKED for the ability to gift Founder pledges? The referral is just a perk, hell i have received referrals from complete strangers just by being nice to people on the forums.


I feel there is no wrong doing here and no promises are broken and no gimmicks have been pulled. I think this is just a bunch of "Holier than thou" people a little aggravated that they have to share the limelight with a few more people.

If you ask me, there should be NO separation at all, get rid of Benefactors and Founders altogether. I would of course raise the price as the game gets developed, but there should be no separation.

 

Yes, of course. Everything that was said and written made it seem like that cutoff date was it for founders. This was the common understanding, and the whole reason for having a founder/benefactor separation in the first place. Whether you were already a benefactor or not, any gifted pledge made AFTER the cutoff date should have been a benefactor pledge. Again, this was the common understanding of how it was supposed to work and reflected in all the FAQ and questions about pledges.

Founders were able to gift founder pledges up until the cutoff, at which point there was not supposed to be any more founders. Can you please show me where it was promised that we would be able to turn anyone into a founder at any time, regardless of the date? What promise are they honoring by letting founders 'gift' upgrades to benefactors? I have seen a couple people make this claim but so far none have provided an answer to this.

The gimmick being pulled is by the founders like yourself who are getting referrals by acting as a middle-man to upgrade benefactors. Or do you truly believe the referral program was meant to give you referral credit for someone who has already pledge? The referral program is meant to bring new players to the game, not for the way its being used right now.

Then you clearly didn't read my posts where I have stated multiple times that I can live with everyone having the items and special status, and that my biggest issue is the unfairness to benefactors right now.

This is something that you and I most definitely agree on.

 

Gracekain, I appreciate your perspective, after-all live and let live, and we all enjoy the game. However, I do have some fear that there is potential for long-term issues with future Kickstarter projects. One way Kickstarter projects get money is by promising exclusive rewards. This is one way they get fans to pledge early (and often) in the development process. These offers are supposed to help compensate for that faith/risk. If it becomes common-place that Kickstarter rewards are available post closing, people may delay project backing.

No, I don't think one or two projects doing it is going to cause the system to fail, but I think there is a longer-term impact to consider.

Joe
The Unseen Dragon

 

I think the gripe that some people has is that referral by it's very nature suggests that your bringing someone new into the game and for that you get a small reward. Should you get a referral fee based on the fact that the person you are gifting a pledge to has already pledged themselves? Should it be more along the line of if the account value of the person you are gifting to = $0 then you get the fee if it is >$0 then you don't?

I'm not overly precious about it all however the 'lets be fair' element of my business brain (very very small part) would probably say that those people shouldn't get the referral $25. The other part of me says that there would be some kind of incentive for other players to to 'boost' the account of an unknown player. The alternative would be for Portalarium allowing the auto upgrade, however that would mean Portalarium are directly upsetting a percentage of the founders rather than one group of founders upsetting another group.

The really really sad but amusing part is that it costs $40 for the upgrade (for that they get $25) and people are now going as low as $30 which equates to $15............... I cant speak for anyone else but from a time/effort/risk basis $15 simply isn't worth it especially as you still have to pay out the $40 and recover it (far too much hassle imo).

 

Kickstarter Backers can Purchase/Upgrade Pledges at Initial Prices for One Year!

From:
https://www.kickstarter.com/project...of-the-avatar-forsaken-virtues-0/posts/448973

there is relay no more to say. It has been stated then and we have been doing it for a while. It is just now coming into the community spotlight. The referral program is in place to make Portalarium money weather you agree with it or not. The system is in place, I help Portalarium bring n more money even if it is Only $40 per transfer, and they help me get closer to my tier.

And i do agree with you about it being unfair to Benefactors. Just another reason why i try to convert as many as i can to founder before the cut off.