Game imbalance is not incentive

Full loot would destroy PV now that we're in persistence - people are still learning about how the virtue mechanics contribute to their virtue status in PVP. Full loot would be an absolute train wreck at this point. I honestly don't understand the skill point power trip everyone gets on - maybe it would better if the devs just turned off all XP point indicators like they did with virtue stats. And meaningful PVP doesn't require a leaderboard - no one that actually wants meaningful PVP cares about a leaderboard.

 

That is why I said on a QA server just for pvp.. removed from live... as a carrot to get people to play it.. like an arcade game. and the leaderboard, too.. because it would be "for fun". You said the xp bonus was to get people pvping..which.. it MIGHT get people to flag for pvp that wouldn't.. but that doesn't mean those people will actually engage in PVP. I offered a suggestion on how to get the metrics and feedback to fix pvp without an exp bonus on live. If the goal is to "fix" pvp.. to make it fun, the exp bonus won't do that.

And I know plenty of people who would like a pvp leaderboard who love PvP. My husband is one of them. Some PvPers do it to "be the best".. because other players are smarter and tougher than AI.

 

I don't want to say this idea is completely outside the realm of possibility - but this idea is completely outside the realm of possibly. That and the largest audience will always be on the live server - it's pretty obvious they want to target the live server.

Meaningful PVP is more than tournaments and violence and leaderboards. Meaningful PVP is more than loot - it demands immersion and consequences... the virtue system is developing in a way that makes PVP meaningful. It's hard to see because it's still in its infancy but its happening and its going to be great - and while I'm sure a few people would enjoy the simplicity of win/lose leaderboards, the people here for meaningful PVP are chomping at the bit for something much more.

Really, ranking outside of a consensual tournament setting won't matter to anyone that wants meaningful PVP - it really has no place in the game.

 

I do a few of these myself, so i am not arguing against or am i putting down, but these different types of playing the game are not the norm, in terms of gaming. A game of this type usually is made up of two main parts, PvE, including story and grinding and crafting and PvP.....UO/DAOC/Warhammer/Rift/ etc

SotA is unique in what it allows or encourages the players to do, one of the reasons i love it and the vision the devs have, is partly because of this more real world they have created for us. However, for the majority gamer(type) this is not normal, wanted or appreciated, its icing, fluff or something they can do without. SotA is a niche game, always will be if they don't start appealing to what the masses want and giving them some incentive. Which with the majority of gamers its PvE and PvP....Not writing books/making homes/decorating towns......

This game has no cap......If you are doing PvP actively, you are not doing PvE......There has to be some incentive for players not to be left behind with no cap. If there was a cap here like most games where you reach max level in 3 months or so, it wouldn't be needed as a player can do both and survive without being left behind....

 

I think that decision is a bit above your pay grade.

So, you're saying people want "meaningful pvp" but aren't willing to spend time on a QA server intensive just to fix pvp to get it? If the devs said "hey, we're going a special QA to fix nutrition or farming or flexible placement" I think anyone interested in seeing those things come to fruition would want to take part in them.

I would argue is a leaderboad is too "game gimmicky" so is an arbitary experience bonus for wearing a flag while grinding for experience which doesn't have anything to do with "meaningful" pvp either. If this goes through, I'll be wearing a pvp flag while out gaining experience.. but you would waste more in reagents killing me than you would "gain" from the fight. The exp bonus is just going to give the super high level folks a new way to min/max and improve their experience gains. It doesn't "make pvp fun" and the same people that are bored with the game's pvp mechanics will still be bored.

 

I like incentives, but not if it means in order to compete, i'd have to PVP. I always play in MPO mode, because I like having other people around. But, I also prefer solo MPO, because that is and always will be my playstyle. I am not a pvp'er at heart, but due tend too, but not in a group, if I cannot solo in PVP then I prefer not to even try it. I don't like pvp in this game, and have no intentions, ever to play it, no matter what carrot they dangle. So , do not punish us, who enjoy soloing in a morph , I like the feeling when I accomplish something on my own, without the help of others, unless I ask for it.

 

Totally agree.......Have always said it never no leader boards, and what you have now...scrap.....they the worst iteration of them ever. Maybe leader boards for guild/holding land/factions etc...but never personal leader boards for players imo. They discourage participation not encourage, and aren't wanted by the majority of people that pvp i think.

 

Who are you competing with? I honestly want to know because there is no competitive gameplay in this game, anywhere. Well, that is unless the players create it. It's a Sandbox MMO - a sandbox and to get the absolute best player experience requires cooperation in game wether you're a solo player or in a guild. Even when it comes to meaningful PVP - there won't be competition unless a couple players deciding that's what they want to do (read as sandbox). It'll be about being in a world with consequences. I just don't get it - really, I'm not even being funny - I don't get the all the pushback - I'm a solo player too - and if these bonuses require players to team up - then even better! I'll still be a solo player 80%-90% of the time but who cares?!

I'm in full support of this because it will encourage and promote PVP multiplayer participation and possibly aid in growing the playerbase. This new incentive probably won't benefit me at all, because I'm a solo player but I still think it's a great idea because I care about the game and I want people to play the game. And if that means creating incentives to promote decorating houses, or bug hunting, or making videos, or promoting social events, or seasonal activities.... or PVP AND MULTIPLAYER - I'm all for it.

 

True, and I really do not care what you do with PVP, since I have no plans on doing it, no matter what you do> The only game I have ever enjoyed PVP was in DAOC, that was fun and I truly miss it. But this game is no way like it. so, Do what you will to make PVP profitable for you PVP people, as long as you DO NOT FORCE me to play it. Keep PVP a choice only. as far as multiplayer mode, I love it, but in order to encourage more people to play here, you need to consider the crafters, ( we need more nodes , and have them respawn faster, so multiple people in that zone trying to harvest, can , ....)

 

The way you just explained it, is ok by me, a solo player in MMO ... because as you stated, it does not effect me as a solo player, but benefits the PVP'er as a PVP player. No problem... go for it ...

 

One more point then i shut up......who's cheering?!?

These proposed changes aren't being brought in to alienate people, the complete opposite...the devs are attempting to encourage participation/grouping and different facets of the game. I play solo mostly, and i enjoy playing solo, so the group bonus thing wont really apply to me, but i am not moaning about it or saying it shouldn't happen. I can understand the dev's philosophy and their intentions for the game. If they wanted to give XP for writing books/decorating or anything, if they thought it was necessary and is of a benefit to the game, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me....not one squeak.

The devs have backtracked numerous times in the last few months on changes. Some ive argued about, like when they killed my wolf, ripped all his teeth out and left him with a new name...'Toothless'....i deleted taming...but i was wrong, i have redone it, and the changes they made were perfect imo. There is too much player power here unfortunately.
One of the first things i said on the forums when i first came was for them to 'Listen to the players, but for them to make their own game'. They try, but get beaten back by the vocals here, who in truth are mostly only concerned on how they will be disadvantaged. Its understandable with the funding model....people get upset when they see others getting a perceived advantage, worried how they will lose out.

Open your eyes though please, these changes and ANY changes aren't meant to deprive you, they are meant to help grow the game, which is an advantage for you not a disadvantage. At this point in development anyone arguing against changes like this are basically shooting themselves in the foot, as the survival of the game depends on letting the devs have the control and trying the ideas they want to, without being beaten back by vocal voices amongst the existing player base.

 

That's the spirit.....

 

It appears they are trying to reward only PVP people to play the game as an MMO.

This.

Then make the 25% bonus for everyone in a PVP area (because everyone is PVP there), and only in a PVP area. This would be like the resource bonus in PVP areas.

Indeed. Is the objective to increase Multi population or PVP population? Trying to incentivize two different things with a least common denominator is not likely to be as successful as doing separate things for each. And it fails to deal with how a large part of the reason currently for going solo/party is due to over-hunted mobs or resources, and secondarily for performance.

 

Spot on

 

You are so level headed. Thank you for not shutting up. I know I definitely don't know everything and if I say something off track which I'm sure I do sometimes, then hopefully I'm ignored, not physically but unread, unheard and in the cold, j/k getting a little dramatic there. For me I was disappointed that after waiting and waiting for so many things I heard xp gain as a solution and I reacted to it. I want so much more from this game in details, not lod type of details but things that tell us what's going on (animations and verbal and improved UI). If the Devs ask us to test out something in particular, I'm there. I love our development team and our game, yeah after 3+ years of course.
edited

 

As it should be ...

 

Hahah....Never been complimented for that before.....ill take it!

Hmmm...you might regret that

And neither do i, not even 5% of it. But i have kinda learned over the last few months/years to not get so upset over changes that effect me here. That changes for the good of the game, however i feel that might disadvantage me, are good changes in general.

And so do i, and i think most here do as well. I just wish they would stop fighting them every inch and give them a bit of wiggle room. Of course state what you do or do not like about something, how you see it will pan out, be perceived etc, give them the advice and choices but let them make their own decisions without being fearful of player revolt.

 

I ramble when I type, and I can usually make these ramblings look efficient and coherent if I go over them - but, well, I'm at work and have to work now.

SO

TL;DR
One need not compel players to different modes. One need simply balance modes so that one never feels punished for following their preferred style/mode of play. The game rewards SPO with 100% efficiency, and punishes MPO by placing you in competition for spawns/loot without any mitigation for that competition.

I do not want players who prefer SPO to be forced to play MPO. I just don't want people to feel SPO is the best way to harvest resources, or at least, is not by FAR the best way to harvest resources.

P.S> This is not below, but PLEASE please please allow players at a minimum to have overland map and towns default to MPO and be able to retain the ability to have scenes default to SPO. I love love love when I'm in town and I see people running by. I hate hate hate when I pull up my friends list and see 3 or 4 people in my town, but none of them in my instance because they're in SPO/FPO - the reason? 90% of the time they're in SPO/FPO for efficiency and don't log out of the game and back in just to be MPO when they pop into the town.

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It is for these reasons that I feel that a bonus in multi-player modes/pvp modes is NOT a bonus, but is in fact an equalizer.

When I played D3 nobody would play single-player. Then nobody would play multi-player, then nobody would play single-player, as they kept tweaking and tweaking too far in one direction or the other.

The modes should be at the point where you do not feel "punished" for playing one mode or the other. Maybe one is more efficient, but not to the effect that it is 50% or 100% better than the other (because then you feel like you're wasting major efficiency if you're not in a group, or the opposite, wasting major efficiency if you are playing with a friend - which drives people to solo mode).

Case in point: Hidden Vale. Hidden Vale is a popular gathering/leveling area. If you are at a level where you can handle content efficiently, you are always competing with other people for monster/resource spawns.

So a simplified example: If you can finish clearing an area and by the time you are done, it is respawning, you are at a pretty good efficiency. In SPO you would be earning 100% of your experience without downtime.

In MPO if you have another player there who is clearing the same area and as a pair you are competing (not grouped) and clear it in half the time, but then have to wait for the respawn, then you are perhaps getting 50% of your experience. a 25% bonus to that 50% = 62.5% of your experience that you would be earning without competition aka SPO.

Now popular scenes may have more competition in them because they are "better," so right now people go to their "best" zone and get it all to themself in SPO. But in MPO you compete for resources and spawns.

By providing a 25% bonus to MPO (this is disregarding PvP), you counter the penalty for playing in MPO with other players. You can even go to zones that are less "camped" that are 80% as good as that "best" scene, but not over-populated, and with a 25% bonus you sit back at your 100% efficiency.

So in my mind the question should not be: How do we make MPO better so that people play in MPO?

The question should be: How do we balance these modes so that people who would like to play MPO feel forced to play SPO.

There are people who are legitimately here to interact when they choose, but were compelled to join SotA because they like being able to turn off the other players and still progress their character. We should not alienate these people, they backed the game, many of them contribute to the game and forums and SotA in immeasurable ways.

This is not a war on SPO.

I think this is similar to balancing bows, with swords, with magic. Balancing Fire Magic with Death Magic. Life Magic with Water Magic. Make "choices" but do not make one mode "the best." Or at least make it so "the best" is not waaaay better. I do not need the best build, but I like to think that if I am choosing builds or skill trees that are fun or more suited to my style of play, that they can be within 10-20% of just taking the best skills from each tree and outputting the most DPS per focus.

I think the modes should be comparable, weighted slightly towards the MPO. This is a personal opinion, because whilst I play solo in a lot of games and enjoy farming on my own I feel that the game should be weighted slightly towards group play to encourage grouping, but not to the point where group-play 2-3 times as efficient as solo play.

As I said, I think modes should be comparable - it seems clear to me that if playing solo-mode gives you full access to all resources and spawns, but MPO gives you just 30% of spawns and resources, that there is an imbalance that is weighted towards SPO to the point that MPO feels punishing. MPO should not feel necessary, it just should not feel punishing.

PvP - I have a similar though. Most games I've played give an incentive (aka a balance) to PvP players. I do not think we necessarily need to entice players to play PvP, I just think it needs to feel like PvP isn't all stick. If these people can experience less decay, or hit 10% harder vs PvE, these are advantages available to them in that mode - but at the same time 2 or 3 distance mages can appear and stun/root/5-stack long-distance you to death and steal your stuff. It's dangerous. And people enjoy that danger - BUT - it's nice to have a little something to mitigate the danger. Otherwise people only enter PvP if they're on the side of those 2-3 mages looking for the poor sap who didn't visit the oracle before farming.

 

I know a few games, MMO games, where if you see the gathering resource, YOU can get it. It is not there as a free-for-all for everyone. And if you get it or don't, it doesn't affect the gathering spawn rates for anyone else in the game. So I am guessing that SOTA is not like this, and is thus causing part of the problem why so many, gatherers specifically, play SPO?

 

That's part of it. Also the poor scene optimisation that means lag is worse when in the company of other players. And of course some just prefer to be on their own, and this game promises and supports that capability.