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Games Media Covering Map Fiasco

Discussion in 'Release 4 Feedback' started by DNA Cowboy, Apr 9, 2014.

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  1. DNA Cowboy

    DNA Cowboy Avatar

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  2. docdoom77

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    Thanks for the link!

    Great article Golem Dragon!
     
  3. DNA Cowboy

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    Yes, it is, that's the third article from the gaming press this week alone.

    Hey DocDoom?
    I just read your sig:

    How can he create a 'virtual world more interactive' without a proper map, especially one that is purely a 'minimalist travel system'?
     
  4. Lord Andernut

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    Haha I got quoted “Reminds me of the travel sequences in the Indiana Jones movies” well it's close to what I said, though someone else may have said the same thing. I admit to feeling gutshot about the map change :p
     
  5. DNA Cowboy

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    “we’ve gone from an interactive, fully realized World Map to a piece of paper with a child’s drawing of mountains, trees and towns and a flag representing the player”.

    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Lord_Darkmoon

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    Even if they took inspiration from the Indiana Jones travel sequences, those were very few and short sequences whereas I think we will travel around a lot in SotA and I doubt that I could stand this brown stylized graphics for very long.
    Nothing against a special art style but at some point you simply get tired of it. It may be cool in the beginning but after hours of hours of having this stylized map in front of you I bet many would get sick of it's sight. But you normally do not get sick of nature and therefore having a realistic map that displays a living world would be the best solution, imo.

    Or make the travel sequences as quick as possible so that you do not have to look at the map for very long, thus auto travel like in Dragon Age/Baldur's Gate would be the solution if they want to stick with the paper map. You do not look at the map in Dragon Age/Baldur's gate for very long but if you had to roam around on it, you would get sick of it too, after some time.
     
  7. Sunsanvil

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    What I wouldn't give to be a fly on the wall at Portalarium right now and hear what they REALLY think about all this. :)
     
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  8. Lum the Mad

    Lum the Mad Developer Emeritus Dev Emeritus

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    "Some of our backers have some really good ideas, but it's very difficult to parse them amidst all the negativity, attacks and trolling."

    You asked....
     
  9. docdoom77

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    I totally get that. People get emotional (god knows I have been) and I think good ideas and real concerns get buried in the crap.

    From our side, with the exception of you, Lum, it's very hard to know what the devs are thinking until some mega-post comes out.
     
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  10. Lord Andernut

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    The sooner a devpost comes out the less off-track the discussion gets :p

    I think many people only start to get emotional and offtopic (and negative) when they feel they aren't heard. A one-liner (no need for megapost though I love em) often does wonders!

    Though as someone who frequently involves himself in forums the negativity and trolling (though I do shudder when I see PvP polls) is not as flagrant as some sites.

    I think since the motto is that developers are listening to feedback and able to implement changes based on it to create an awesome game - people aren't satisfied with merely knowing devs are listening but instead want to know that they've been heard :)
     
  11. Sunsanvil

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    I hear that. As a rule I don't partake of forums, but this one has been, comparatively, quite civil if you ask me.

    Devs, I know the human being in all of us would take things personally, but in our defense some of us have been waiting 20 years for "U10" and this is probably the only shot we're ever going to get so naturally emotions get invested.... :)
     
  12. Lord_Darkmoon

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    Sorry if some of us - including me - come about as negative and maybe trolls. But it is a topic that is very important to some of us.
    I hope that the devs realize that for some of us the zoomed out 3D view was some kind of substitution for exploring the world in its entirety. There will be no monoscale map in SotA on which you can explore every inch of the world but having a zoomed out 3D view of the world would give the illusion of being able to explore it. For some of us the map is simply more than a means of transportation and if it would look "realistic" with trees swinging in the wind, animals roaming around, creating a great atmosphere we could get lost in this view and it would be fun to just wander around on it. With a paper map this would not be possible - at least for me - as I would always walk around on paper and not in a living, gorgeous world.
     
  13. Lum the Mad

    Lum the Mad Developer Emeritus Dev Emeritus

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    That's definitely understood!

    One big issue we ran into with the "realistic" overland map is that it hit an uncanny valley effect very quickly - the more we made it realistic/naturalistic, the more the elements that were compromised (scale of objects, general quality of the world view, etc) stood out. In many people's eyes it looked *more* fake than a paper-art version simply because there was the implied promise that it would look realistic, yet at that representational scale it just doesn't.

    I don't really want to dive into this specific discussion too much further since it's not my call either way; just giving a peek into what went into a decision you disagree with.
     
  14. docdoom77

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    We're glad you chimed in. We didn't even know that much.

    From my perspective, the issues you mentioned are much less intrusive to the experience then the current map system. Though the sliding shield and lack of camera are worse than the art direction. It precludes the idea of exploration completely.
     
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  15. Lord_Darkmoon

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    I think the overland view that was shown during the RTX demonstration and in the videos before that was great. Maybe it could have been improved with more detailed textures and some added effects like weather, day/night, clouds... but it was great. The scale didn't matter that much. No one is expecting it to be ultra-realistic life-like... Other games like Age of Wonders 3 or Heroes of Might and Magic use such scale too and it doesn't distract from the atmosphere or play experience. That the scale wouldn't be right was clear from the beginning when we first saw it.

    But the paper map is just something so radically different as if it would load a completely different game when you enter "world view". Every time it ripped me out of the immersion. I simply cannot get immersed by looking at a paper map...


    Oh and by the way - not that it would be neccessary - but here you can see the overland map of Chaos Chronicles, developed by a very small indie team that at least somehow gets the scale right:

    Chaos Chronicles Map
     
  16. Mishri

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    With dual scale maps people are used to the scale being off, it's how every dual scale map I've ever seen works. The graphics are also usually not as good in the overworld map, that is also expected.

    You can see the little monsters running around on the island here, had a tough time finding good screenshots of the overworld to ni no kuni, but this is one of my favorite recent games with dual scale map. Also note the stylized map is used for seeing your location in the world on the top right, that would be neat for SoTA.

    [​IMG]

    This is Fire Emblem awakening, I hated the overworld map. You didn't control your character, you moved on rails, much like the current SoTA system. the overworld didn't look like the rest of the world. I thought it was very poorly done.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Give us WASD movement controls and our avatar moving around on the overworld map and I'll be happier, gives us a world that looks like the same style as the rest of the world, with encounters and exploration and I'll be really happy.
     
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  17. Golem Dragon

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    Glad people found my article useful and informational... I was annoyed with lack of functionality at the moment, but with my experience I put my hopes in that we will get more expanded movement control and other lil tweaks to beef up the functionality that it would become a map that feels more engaging and immersive. After all... this was only the first iteration of this gameplay feature. I purposely waited as long as I did to post the article because I wanted to be fairly objective in my analysis.

    Thanks to Lum as always for his chiming in. I hope we get more deep information from other dev team members on the change... even just what Lum shared already makes a huge difference in helping us understand the thought process.... there is no way to make everyone happy, but at least understanding why choices are being made will resolve the majority of what feels to be the main issue ppl are having... lack of communication on this one topic from the devs.
     
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  18. jiirc

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    In the end when the game is to the point where they let the characters persist and it is in a released state, none of this is going to matter. We'll play the game and live with the degree of so-called immersion breaking that the overland map or other systems contributes to the experience. The style of the map, no matter what the style is, is going to affect each person differently; that's the very nature of experience and prior knowledge influencing our opinions. And while people will say that its going to affect sales, people not involved I this discussion won't even know that this discussion occurred and judged a different product than we see now.
     
  19. Golem Dragon

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    I enjoy playing devils advocate at times on the forums too, so if i push your buttons, it isn't out of hate... it is because i am trying to get more info out of you or trying to get you to broaden your thought process to include something you may not have considered in the "simulation your mind put together"... :)
     
  20. Knight Commander Tyncale

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    They will not know about the controversy that happened, but they *will* get to experience a gamesystem (the Overland Map) that will be part of their gameplay. The question is, which iteration of this gamesystem will make this game more interesting, so that people keep playing (and paying for) it. That is very hard to objectify, since players only get to experience the one iteration.

    When this game does not do as well as everyone hoped for, could a lacking Overland map have something to do with it? Very hard to tell after the fact, most people will tell you that they quit a game "because it was boring", or the "constant ganking got to me", or "lousy itemization" or " grinding tokens is no fun".
    For myself, one of the reasons that I keep going back to EQ is for a very simple gamesystem that I still love and usually takes up 20-50% of my playing time: Vendor-diving. The fact that NPC merchants stock the wares that other players sell them, so that another player can see them and buy them, is a major gameplay feature for me. I will not go into details but checking vendors in remote areas of the world, just to see what kind of crap they have that players sold them, is a major incentive for me. I realize that I am little crazy in this, but I know there are many more that at least like this feature.

    The Overland map could easily be such a feature that forms a major incentive to play for some or many.

    I have to say as a travel tool, I found the current implementation of the map a bore and a hassle that I would rather do without. Instead give me a Baldurs Gate type of instant click map then.
     
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