Grunvald, Drachvald, and Midmaer Regional Economy Meeting - Sunday 6PM NBT in Serenite

Discussion in 'Archived Events' started by Eternal Knight, Nov 27, 2015.

?

How often would you like to have a Regional Economy Meeting?

  1. Once a Week

  2. Once a Month

  3. Once a Quarter

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Eternal Knight

    Eternal Knight Avatar

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    Are you an owner or leader of a POT in Grunvald, Midmaer, or Drachvald?
    If so, then you are invited to join us and participate in our first regional economy meeting.
    Also, please vote in the poll on how often you would like to meet.

    This is an open meeting where anyone can attend, listen, and provide input.

    When: Sunday, November 29th at 6PM NBT (7PM EST).
    Where: Serenite - Upper Market Stage - Grunvald Region

    After arriving in Serenite, turn right towards the upper market.
    Go past the Market and the Gustball training field and turn right at the Moon Tower.
    You can also /zone on EternalKnight.

    As this is the first of many meetings, we will spend some time doing a meet and greet. Each town in these three regions will get a couple minutes to introduce themselves, explain what they are about, and provide some insight/ideas on how they would like our regional economy to work.

    After, we will discuss any pressing topics and finally a Q&A session.

    Hope to see you on Sunday,
    Eternal Knight
    Emissary - Order of Vengeance
     
  2. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

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    Dead Horse has no population and therefore will not participate in any economic organization.
     
  3. Themo Lock

    Themo Lock Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    but you make all the coins! :)
     
  4. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

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    The mint is in Brittany.
     
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  5. Rufus D`Asperdi

    Rufus D`Asperdi Avatar

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    Shouldn't the market shape the economy?

    I've always had ... difficulties with organizations banding together to shape what will be offered to the populace. Removing choice, competition, and determining what will be in a virtual star chamber isn't something I wish to have happen in Shroud of the Avatar. I have the same difficulty with The Tantalus Consortium, of which I am a member, at least on paper.
     
  6. Sold and gone

    Sold and gone Avatar

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    I feel the same as you sir.
     
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  7. Winfield

    Winfield Legend of the Hearth

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    What you suggest is absolutely spot on. We want to talk about market and economy.

    • Market is defined as "the process by which the prices of goods and services are established. Markets facilitate trade and enables the distribution and allocation of resources in a society. Markets allow any trade-able item to be evaluated and priced. A market emerges more or less spontaneously or may be constructed deliberately by human interaction in order to enable the exchange of rights (cf. ownership) of services and goods." (ref Wikipedia Market)
    • Economy is defined as "the production, distribution or trade, and consumption of limited goods and services by different agents in a given geographical location. The economic agents can be individuals, businesses, organizations, or governments. Transactions occur when two parties agree to the value or price of the transacted good or service, commonly expressed in a certain currency." (ref Wikipedia Economy)
    We want to discuss all the options, approaches, and methods. Supply/Demand, joint distribution points or create-your-own, supply chain concepts, marketing, etc. There's a lot we can test now in pre-Alpha and see if game mechanics work to support warehouses (permission sets, etc.) and more.

    Our discussions do not reduce choices for people. In fact, the discussions usually reveal more options and educate each other to concepts. This is why we talk with each other and get to know each others' attitudes and philosophies.

    I look forward to learning a lot at this meeting since I am less economically minded and more diplomatically minded.
     
  8. Rufus D`Asperdi

    Rufus D`Asperdi Avatar

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    I will object to that process being defined by any other than the artisans and craftsmen producing the goods.

    Again, I will object should the economic agents be any other than the individuals producing the goods or providing the services. I will object to any organization attempting to regulate or fix the pricing of goods or services and will not participate in any such schemes.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2015
  9. Sean Silverfoot

    Sean Silverfoot Avatar

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    No one is forcing participation now or when we go live. I see no problem getting together discussing concepts, which is exactly what we're doing.

    If it's not your in your interest don't participate, no harm no foul.
     
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  10. Winfield

    Winfield Legend of the Hearth

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    Noted.

    I look forward to seeing the artisans and craftsmen producing the goods, setting their prices, and selling items. As a fisherman, I may not know the best prices and I may not run a fishing shop (a lot of work) ... so I may turn to someone who knows the market better than I do and can run a business. That person may turn to those who understand the Novian market and prices so the business can be competitive.

    We shall see how it all comes together and it will likely involve many jobs, skills, and knowledge. There should be many opportunities for gatherers, craftsmen, salesmen, and market analysts too.

    We do not presume to curtail fair trade and opportunities in any way. We seek to understand the possibilities of the supply/economic chain and how our region may have a stable and growing economy.

    Thanks!
     
  11. Jatvardur

    Jatvardur Avatar

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    Agreed. Which is why Tantalus is not following in the footsteps of the BMC
     
  12. Selene

    Selene Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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  13. Violation Clauth

    Violation Clauth Avatar

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    Hey guys! I just had my attention drawn to the responses here. I want to briefly say, without reading a post, that the purpose of this was never to price fix anything but rather get everyone together to talk about what's missing in the game right now. We're pre-alpha testing. I was really hoping someone here would say something like...

    "The economy doesn't make sense when the currency is all virtual and there is no physical currency that has weight and the ability to be stolen/lost"

    or

    "We need the ability to deposit our coins into banks and guild vaults"

    or

    "I think that any game without a cheeseburger has no stability to it's economy"

    all valid comments and all on topic.


    The idea here was for pre-alpha talk and community gathering and NOT to fix or get a grasp or stronghold on anything. I'm against all of those things :) I've actually recently had some very strong conversations with my guild members about not doing exclusives in contracts with vendors... so there's no time we're going to say "only 1 blacksmith vendor" or "you can or can't put this or that on a vendor" or "this is the price for this or that on your vendor"... I think an open and free experimentation with economy and systems that effect it are the best method so we also charge no rent for space.

    Hope this helps!
     
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  14. Winfield

    Winfield Legend of the Hearth

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    Eternal Knight led a great meeting tonight! Thanks!

    Here are my thoughts and notes form the meeting. We had a GREAT discussion tonight ... i wish it was recorded and more people could attend. We have lots of ideas and looked at the process:

    [​IMG]

    ... yet the above does not describe the feedback from consumption back to production/allocation ... which involves market analysis.

    Market analysis and establishing prices on goods fits mainly in the the Allocation process, which is a SMALL part of the overall economic effort. If we sell something and cannot distribute, we fail. If we take orders and cannot produce, we fail. If we gather but cannot produce and sell profitably, we fail. Many towns will have bills to pay (rent on lots, equipment for warriors, fish bait of course!). So economics and profits are needed.

    As we discussed, we advocate free market decisions at the lowest levels in our region. We do not want any sort of regulation -- we want markets to drive the economic investments.

    Market analysis leading to price fixing across Novia is a myth and simply causes fear ... Novia is huge and there will be buyers and sellers everywhere ... even in our own regional microcosms.

    In Drachvald, Grunvald, and Midmaer, we have very positive attitudes about markets and economy going forward.

    Thanks. We plan to meet monthly.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2015
  15. Violation Clauth

    Violation Clauth Avatar

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    As politely as possible you guys are not only off topic but you're arguing off topic in my friends event thread. It's also for an event that happens in a town under my umbrella of towns. Please kindly stop driving this event off topic and stop the back and forth. As a representative of the town I can assure you the event this thread is for had absolutely nothing to do with the Tantilus Consortium or BMC. When people from other regions asked about it I said the same thing to everyone: you're welcome to attend and watch but the conversation is for the towns in these regions and this is not a trade agreement or trade proposal event. It's a systems conversation and a chance for people to meet and greet each other to know who everyone is. It's a chance to help share ideas about things. This is absolutely NOT the place to bring a back and forth argument about what trades and prices you guys do in other areas, nationally, or as guild/group/consortium/alliance/gathering. Ideally this actually would focus on the smaller people that do NOT have the type of manpower or grasp that a larger guild/group would offer... a perfect example would be the Syndicate who said they would decline attending because they felt it wouldn't be a benefit for them to be there due to their size. Another great example would be The Duchy of Dara Brae, who did attend, who doesn't boast thousands of members but has an AMAZINGLY rich and impactful part in the region and larger community. @Duke Gréagóir attended looking for the meet-and-greet portion of the night and to talk about how systems of trading between regions would work. That's on topic and that's the type of conversation I'd like to continue here.

    For your understanding and immediate cooperation in bringing this thread on topic: Thanks.

    For future replies and people who are interested in talking about this please consider some of the following hot topics:
    • How will a single person in a player owned town survive in SotA right now?
    • How can you facilitate trade without a vendor or third parties and in an offline environment (like, oh I don't know, the mail system?) without being able to store gold in a chest or a bank?
    • How do you plan on getting the word about your wares out?
    • How do you plan on contacting people to sell your resources to crafters?
    • What method do you have for transporting large quantities of goods?
    • Do you think people who are encumbered to a specific weight (transporting goods at max capacity, for example) should have a higher chance at random encounters or auto-entry into specific zones?
    • How can a single-player-online avatar trade goods without the use of a vendor in the online environment?

    Systems conversations... ready? set? go! :cool:
     
  16. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

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    I would like to address a couple of the single player online issues @Violation mentioned.

    I would expect that a SPO-player could make a request in the Marketplace section of these forums for anything they might need, and that anybody might answer that request, decide price, and arrange delivery. It would be nice if there were a secure delivery system in the game (a game mechanism, not player-run), but one could manage with face-to-face transfers. I don't see an in-game equivalent of this system that would be effective. It would take a global auction house, or global bulletin board, and I don't see that happening in-game.

    Likewise, the SPO-player might inquire in the Marketplace and be told which town and vendor usually stocks the item of interest.

    I would think that some crafters and the location of their vendors will become generally known, and the SPO-player will check those vendors first when in need.

    The non-forum-using SPO-player will have a difficult time.

    And finally, the SPO-player could wander to each and every town, checking every vendor that can be found.

    Or the SPOnline player will have to use the same method the SPOffline player will use, and just make whatever is needed for himself.
     
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  17. Violation Clauth

    Violation Clauth Avatar

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    Without the systems to allow secured trade via two parties without a vendor I think this is going to happen. It's a bummer because I see a huge benefit to online play but I also think that vendors are taxed or in a lower % of backer options (citizen plus I believe) for tax free... so many people won't want to use vendors, due to their taxes, to trade between friends.

    So picture this: you meet up with @Duke Gréagóir at the next silver serpent festival and he says he has something for you in the game. You are a single player person so you want him to get it to you without logging into multi player. How would you make that happen without a vendor? Right now I don't think it's possible. I think gatherings like the one we held can help expose those issues.

    We're going to be holding them monthly so I'll keep questioning people and hopefully get a rock solid "this is what we want" thread going here where the devs can read everyone's feedback and make something that is one-and-done good for most.

    I really like your suggestion of using the forums for trade but the actual trade of goods has to happen in-game and right now forces you to a multiplayer environment. Some people would rather not trade than go multiplayer from what I've gathered (my wife, for example, doesn't want to deal with vendors at all and refuses to use the forums... just an example) :)
     
  18. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

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    The Public Cache Chest is the only mechanism I see that can currently be used to transfer items without logging into multiplayer.
    If it gets some controls, such as allowing non-owners to place items in, but not take out, then that helps. That would take some trust, but it could be done. Then, transferring gold in that manner would mean gold coins being a thing (which I am a fan of!)

    *edit - non-property owners could not receive items in this manner. Hmmm.
     
  19. jiirc

    jiirc Avatar

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    It is exactly there kinds of system discussions that are required. If the discussions are about future recommendations, port has discussed some already. They've in essence committed to permissions on chests, including public ones. They've committed to public bulletin boards, unless you don't want to lawyer them. But they have mentioned that these are a possibility they are exploring. They've mentioned a work order system. These are all possible ways that single player online and multiplayer online would be able to use shared systems to accommodate transactions between people. Shared system between these modes are already possible with the tech they have; can you say private vendors, public vendors, npc vendors, etc that are access lie for any mode. The questions are about how they should be implemented. That is what was seen when the Serenite market place was starting to be built out. Permissions were a major issue. If someone wanted to place a vendor or you wanted to share a vendor, a lot of trust is required between many parties. These are the discoveries that are important to ensuring workable systems.
     
  20. Violation Clauth

    Violation Clauth Avatar

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    Also we found first hand the frustration with needing to change a house after a vendor is stocked... tough stuff to get solved. Then after all the time of listing stuff someone needing to turn around and list it all again because a house was changed can be a huge deterrent to using private vendors.

    For those who don't know: a player vendor takes on the permissions of the lot so if you want to list on the vendor you have to grant that person access to all of your chests and decorations... tough stuff as a lot owner... and then the lot owner changing their house banks the vendor and everything gets kicked back to the listing avatar's bank... not sure of a better means yet but that's just been frustrating for a lot of people on both parts.
     
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