How does dodge work now?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Barugon, May 21, 2018.

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  1. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    It seems that dodge was "adjusted" a few releases back. Does anyone know how it actually works now (i.e. how do I translate the dodge value into something meaningful)?
     
  2. mystarr

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    It would be awesome if @Chris would confirm and DOCUMENT this somewhere. (Instead of having the info buried in the middle of hours of possibly out of date tech talks and/or blog entries...)

    Here is my current understanding...

    SHORT VERSION
    Your dodge score is: dodge from skills and armor + your dex/2 - attackers dex /4
    Your % chance to dodge is about half your dodge score

    (Edit: Updated to indicate where dodge from armor fits in)


    LONG VERSION
    DS = dodge score = dodge from skills and armor + dex/2 - (attackers dex)/4
    NHS = normal hit score = base weapon skill (or character level whichever is higher?)
    GBS = glancing blow score = avoidance on armor + avoidance boost from 2 skills (glancing blow, fortify def, etc)
    CS = crit score = This one is complicated. It is a percent chance that is converted to a score
    • % chance = [base weapon crit chance + armor weak points + vital points + dex /20 (dex /10 for archers) ] * (1+ crit chance modifiers from weapon materials and/or masterworks)
    • CS = (DS+NHS+GBS) * % chance
    Blocks and parry are then determined by a second roll (so you can get things like a crit hit from first roll that is blocked by second roll)

    chance of normal hit = NHS / (DS + NHS + GBS + CS)
    chance of glancing blow = GBS / (DS + NHS + GBS + CS)
    chance of dodge/miss = DS / (DS + NHS + GBS + CS)
    chance of crit hit = CS / (DS + NHS + GBS + CS)


    EXAMPLE
    Attacker: 100 base bludgeoning combat skill, 80 dex, 80 armor weak points skill (5% crit), uses a normal mace (6% crit)
    Defender: cloth armor (0 base avoid) with 90 dex is using 100 evasion (10 avoid?), 100 fortify defense (15 avoid?) and 100 dodge (20 dodge?)

    DS = 20 + 90/2 - 80 /4 = 45
    HNS = 100
    GBS = 0 + 10 +15 = 25
    CS: 6%+5%+4% = 15% so we get .15 * (45+100+25) = 25.5

    DS + HNS + GBS + CS = 195.5

    chance of normal hit = 51.2% (100/195.5)
    chance of glancing blow = 12.8% (25/195.5)
    chance of dodge/miss = 23.0% (45/195.5)
    chance of crit hit = 13.0% (25.5/195.5)
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
  3. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    Where does dodge from equipment factor in there?
     
  4. mystarr

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    I believe it just adds to the dodge score. In particular, it isn't worth it to use leather straps when you make armor.
    • I think each leather strap adds .125 to dodge score
    • so 10 leather straps would add a whooping 1.25 to dodge score
    • this is going to translate into less than 1% to your dodge chance
     
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  5. Barugon

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    @mystarr
    Do you know if GBS is clamped at zero if your DA is less than zero from the blessing of elusiveness?

    [edit] Or would the chance of glancing blow itself be clamped at zero?
     
  6. 2112Starman

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    One thing Chris and the dev's have made clear over the years I have been here is that they will not go to far into the math behind stuff to try and temper the min/max'ers (although, they figure this stuff out on their own). I have actually been surprised at how much info he has given out in his tech talk Tuesday videos.
     
  7. Diab Blackbow

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    Apparently it's always been Dex/400. There are some Dodge answers in there too.

     
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
  8. mystarr

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    I don't know for certain but the chance to get a glancing blow cant be less than 0...

    In practice I use maces and use the bezerk skill so my avoidance often shows as less than 0 on my character doll
    It doesn't seem to hurt me.
     
  9. Barugon

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    Depending on where the value is clamped, it could have a large effect on the dodge chance.
     
  10. mystarr

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    I read that and I was really excited, but it doesn't track with actual results in game.
    Dex/400 would mean every 4 points of dex = 1% crit chance. I use a mace with (6% crit chance) and have 80 armor weak points (5% crit chance) and have 140 dex (-10str,+30 dex buff; air's embrace buff)

    If it was really dex/400 then 140 dex would give me an extra 35% crit chance for a total of 46% crit chance.

    My parses rarely go any better than 15% crits.

    I think @Chris was off his game with the DEX/400 number
     
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  11. Diab Blackbow

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    I would tend to agree with you. I run around with 190+ Dex at times and crit chance is terrible.
     
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  12. mystarr

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    I assume you mean that if the GBS can go negative it would lower the denominator and increase the chance for all other results? I think that would make the math blow up and I assume @Chris would have caught it...

    For example:
    If GBS is capped at 0
    100 NHS + 45 DS + 21.75 CS + 0 GBS = 166.75
    chance of normal hit = 60.0% (100/166.75)
    chance of glancing blow = 0% (0/166.75)
    chance of dodge/miss = 27.0% (45/166.75)
    chance of crit hit = 13.0% (21.75/166.75)

    If GBS is NOT capped at 0
    100 NHS + 45 DS + 18 CS + -25 GBS = 138
    chance of normal hit = 72.5% (100/138)
    chance of glancing blow = -18% (-25/138)
    chance of dodge/miss = 32.6% (45/138)
    chance of crit hit = 13.0% (18/138)
    Note these dont add up to 100% if you take out the -18% so the math would be pretty messed up in this case.
     
  13. Barugon

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    Clamping GBS severely limits the value of the blessing of elusiveness if your DA is low and is detremental to other factors (like criticals). If your DA is higher than 20 then you would see no determent, which is counter to what @Chris was saying about how it would mostly benefit those with low DA.
     
  14. mystarr

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    Actually I think it makes sense if glancing blow score (DA) is capped at 0.

    If you have more than 20 glancing blow score then the blessing of elusiveness is a straight trade off +20 dodge score and - 20 glancing blow score.

    However, if you have 0 glancing blow in the first place then the blessing of elusiveness is a big win.
    +20 dodge score increases your dodge
    - 20 glancing blow score doesn't lower anything because your glancing blow score is already 0
    Upshot: no trade off, just a win for dodge.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
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  15. Barugon

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    I'm not so worried about min/maxing stuff but, according to the math above, if I take the blessing of elusiveness then my enemy's chance of scoring a critical hit goes up! That's pretty jacked up.
     
  16. mystarr

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    I'm not sure where you get that. Maybe my explanation wasn't clear.

    If your dodge score (DS) goes up 20 and your glancing blow score (GBS) goes down 20 the crit score is unchanged
    • CS = (DS+NHS+GBS) * % chance

    The blessing is even better in the special case where your GBS was below 20. Here is an example

    EXAMPLE: 0 glancing blow score without Blessing of Elusiveness
    Attacker: 100 base bludgeoning combat skill, 80 dex, 80 armor weak points skill (5% crit), uses a normal mace (6% crit)
    Defender: cloth armor (0 base avoid) with 90 dex and 100 dodge (20 dodge?)

    DS = 20 + 90/2 - 80 /4 = 45
    HNS = 100
    GBS = 0
    CS: 6%+5%+4% = 15% so we get .15 * (45+100+0) = 21.75

    DS + HNS + GBS + CS = 166.75

    chance of normal hit = 60.0% (100/166.75)
    chance of glancing blow = 0% (0/166.75)
    chance of dodge/miss = 27.0% (45/166.75)

    chance of crit hit = 13.0% (21.75/166.75)
    -----------------------------------------
    EXAMPLE 0 glancing blow score with Blessing of Elusiveness
    Attacker: 100 base bludgeoning combat skill, 80 dex, 80 armor weak points skill (5% crit), uses a normal mace (6% crit)
    Defender: cloth armor (0 base avoid) with 90 dex and 100 dodge (20 dodge?) AND blessing of elusiveness

    DS = 20 + 20 + 90/2 - 80 /4 = 65
    HNS = 100
    GBS = 0 -20 but cant go below 0 so its 0
    CS: 6%+5%+4% = 15% so we get .15 * (65+100+0) = 24.75

    DS + HNS + GBS + CS = 189.75

    chance of normal hit = 52.7% (100/189.75)
    chance of glancing blow = 0% (0/189.75)
    chance of dodge/miss = 34.3% (65/189.75)

    chance of crit hit = 13.0% (24.75/189.75)
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
  17. Barugon

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    21.75 / 195.5 = 0.111253197

    24.75 / 189.75 = 0.130434783
     
  18. Rook Strife

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    The displayed %'s in game need to be more inline with their actual value or the formula for the basics of combat should be easy to find in one section of the forums.

    Spending large amounts of cash on weps / armor or Xp on skills only to find out afterword that the 20% crit you were expecting really works out to 2% sucks.
     
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  19. mystarr

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    Cut and paste mistake.

    chance of normal hit = 60.0% (100/166.75)
    chance of glancing blow = 0% (0/166.75)
    chance of dodge/miss = 27.0% (45/166.75)

    chance of crit hit = 13.0% (21.75/166.75)

    Corrected in the post you quoted now. Sorry for confusion.
     
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  20. mystarr

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    @Chris @Berek This is why I think it would be better to have combat mechanics be a little more transparent. It is frustrating for players to spend a lot of time/resources to work on an item that looks like it should be better based on vague tooltips only to discover it really isn't anywhere near as useful as it sounded.
     
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