I lost 1/4th of my GM's from one death!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by King Robert, Feb 25, 2018.

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  1. Toadster

    Toadster Avatar

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    Unfortunately when it comes to experience decay on death the developers don’t seem to be reading anything and it makes me worry about the longevity of this game. Personally, if Decay is still in by release I believe a lot of current players are going to really consider the consequences of continuing to play this game, and it will keep casual players from ever starting. If they are just trying to find an alternative then take the current crap out until they can find something else.
     
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  2. Kailo Firestorm

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    they make a game that's fun and don't punish their players for advancing.
     
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  3. StrangerDiamond

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    Shame on you for not having a healer with resurrect in your party and rolling 1 on a D20 :p

    A real D&D Gm would give you time to get to town and find such a healer. When I GMed games I would start the character upon res without any XP on his level... it was often a biiig penalty. Which is one most of us who are against skill decay wouldn't mind, BTW !

    I guess your GM was the hardcore type :p
     
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  4. Mockery

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    My 2 Cents:

    Three step solution:
    Prepare - Create an ingame potion that can be crafted to reduce death penalty by 25%.
    Forgive - First death of the Day has a 50% reduction to total death penalty.
    Regain - Create a shrine that you can pray at for a buff that grants 25% more exp for 2 hours after a death.

    If you are prepared, your first death would be 25% of what is taken right now. And you can pray to make re-coup faster.
    If you go back and decided that the first death wasn't enough, and you prepared, it's only 75% of the total that we have now and you can still get the 25% increased EXP gain.
    Going back again...unprepared....well...you get what we have now.

    Thoughts?

    edit - I just thought that it seems the devs don't want to remove this feature. So, maybe they are willing to consider ways for a prepared adventure to mitigate his/her risk.
     
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  5. Arkah EMPstrike

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    Just type /debug ant it will show you exactly what you lost wgen you res
     
  6. Elwyn

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    I usually run with /debug on and I have no idea what you are referring to. If it's deep inside a message where I have to tweak debug log filters to see something, then it's a lot easier to just hit K before rezzing and compare two numbers.
     
  7. Arkah EMPstrike

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    Its the info mag that pops up immediatly after you res.
     
  8. Nikko

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    Well... It really doesn't impact players at all until nearly adv level 80 or 90... and even then it isn't all that bad until you're pretty far past 100. I'm not sure ANY new player will notice anything at all until he or she is pretty deep into it. Several months at the very least.

    I don't necessarily agree with the death decay thing, but I highly doubt any new player will know it even exists until they've been at this for at least 4 to 6 months in most cases.
     
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  9. StrangerDiamond

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    Did you actually read what we were saying ?

    *rubs temples*

    I don't agree with Toadster's predictions... but in essence how can we talk about casual players, you turn around say new player and then thats it, your argument is done cause I decided to talk about something else ?

    We're talking specifically about "new" players who after reaching the beginning of the soft cap hence not a new new player but a new player who is casual and evaluating very grossly how much time he can put into this and still be able to adventure and spar with their friends who maybe got a little more time than them, but then sure that is what death decay is supposed to fix.

    It's a vicious circle until you begin to really think about it. It's the exact opposite of what we had in UO... skill based vs level based.

    But regardless of the chess game, the ultimate goal is to achieve balance between allowing players to progress and allowing the weaker to still feel relevant.

    We're not even disputing that Chris is doing this with brio... we're disputing this specific mechanic, in a very specific way, and offering very simple solutions that should either be argued against or accepted as a good compromise. As with any other subject on this forum should be allowed to mature.

    There is no "logical wall" here, no "statistical wall", no "meta-gaming" wall either...

    You can't trade an argument for stats "oh well 51% people seem to think that decay makes death meaningful" sweet, lets ignore that most of these players make millions of XP an hour and that they like it like this cause it keeps them on top and a good distance from those who don't know how to game the game and min max their XP pool... lets ignore that generally only advanced level players use the forums... lets ignore that those people weren't asked if any of the proposed solutions made death even more meaningful (cause many are harsher).

    Let's ignore that people have been trying to side step us for years.

    We grew a thick skin, you're welcome to poke again I'm not going to budge on this, I've thought it thorough and through.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
  10. Nikko

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    Perhaps I should have narrowed it down a bit... This is the part I don't understand. "keep casual players from starting." Howso? Maybe I am just misunderstanding something. The problems with XP decay upon death do not even start to show themselves until you've been playing this game for quite a large amount of time. It is a problem that veterans experience, and veterans are the ones that are showing dismay. This is why only a select few here in the forums even think it is a really bad thing.

    For the record, I think it is a bad thing, and that the limited return on investment on the way to skill level 200 [nearly impossible to reach] does the job wonderfully alone.
     
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  11. MrBlight

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    The mechanic itself.
    I have buddies as well that would look past other bugs and issues.. but explain decay and they laugh and say * thats retarded.*. Boom they never play game. Its literally the deciding factor for a lot of people trying to brint people in.

    Dumb mechanic.
    It activly Repels players.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
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  12. StrangerDiamond

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    Exactly, and many left the forums because of peer pressure to "stop whining", its normal that it "looks like" we're a (select few, strange expression btw)...

    it's like the bag mode lovers... only 5% used it... except we are hundreds that were eagerly waiting for its bugs to be fixed to use it... I did use it at first and it frustrated me but then I said to myself... calm down its alpha.
     
  13. StrangerDiamond

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    Thank you, that is our cornerstone argument.

    As I've said why not make it so bosses cause avatars who die too often to lose morale and hence decay skills passively ?

    Then the player who is hit with alot of decay can work his way out of it with quests and killing other bosses.

    Example, I try to farm a dragon but I fail too often at it because I'm greedy and want his loot I continue on this path.

    I get a negative morale about it instilling fear of the dragon, the game forces me to change my routine and go kill something easier until I have better morale. It would make very much sense that skills decay less or not at all when your morale is very high and you perform consistently, it even becomes another goal to reach for the powergamers.

    Everyone is happy and casual never are affected at all because they don't hunt super bosses.
     
  14. Nikko

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    This is an awesome alternative to what we have, and fits well with the lore, imho. Nice.
     
  15. Nikko

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    That's not good, and I hope that doesn't happen a lot.
     
  16. Nikko

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    I guess I used the phrase "select few," because it seems that most people are all fine with it. And then it turns out that 99% of those who are fine with it are like level 60 or 70, and they don't realize that the decay will hurt them the most someday... when they finally DO start really feeling the sting of it.
     
  17. StrangerDiamond

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    Both happen... theres those on top who just have too much XP anyways and don't even plan on using it cause they chose their "best" level... some say around 120 is ideal but thats beyond the point.

    They make so much XP that they can keep trying the same high risk high reward bosses without batting an eye, and solo on top of it because more loot and XP ! They just meta-game it, when pool gets too low, they just go to a control point or monkey room and build a pool again and its a breeze for them.

    When however as you say you hit 90-100 like the OP and you're beginning to love the fact you finally achieved multiple GMs, you realize that it makes you take less risk, cause you want to get to that ideal level so you can go adventure with your friends and be really meaningful.

    You might even be tempted not to group up with people that are not on top, as many have stated... increased risk and less XP.

    P.S.- if we knew in advance and was asked if I wanted a penalty on death or slower advancement, I'd have chosen slow advancement.

    I don't mind if it takes me twice as much time to reach GM, but don't make me feel like I'm taking a step backwards, it does not make death meaningful but rather irritating. It has no fun factor...

    As I've said in my case and many other pure roleplayers, we make a point of NOT metagaming for anything, so when I go adventure I'm all in... when I come back I might have broken my armor and weapon and died 30 times (not kidding).

    Thats how I make my own fun in this game, I take a friend in hard places, we try different strategies, wipe and try again something else.

    It's fun, and the game is seriously starting to get FUN... so we should want to remove anything in the path of this fun.

    Chris did efforts on this front, he made it so there a max amount of decay per day, thats cool.. but there's still that nagging feeling pulling me towards calculating if I'm advancing or not. I should not have that stress, but its always there in the background, instead of the pleasant "lets adventure somewhere where we're not supposed to be, somewhere challenging".

    My pool is most often empty, my leveling strategy since it excludes meta-calculations is well, the most inefficient you could imagine. I train the skills I'm actively using, when it "feels" nice to my avatar, I lock it and continue.

    So it's far from ideal... but the game should be able to be played in such an intuitive way. It should make sense with the lore as you say.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
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  18. MrBlight

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    There was a poll like 4 months ago.. and it was like 50% of people STILL HERE hated it.
    That was ignoring the countless amount of people who left or stopped playing becsuse of it.
    And how can you possibly count the amount of people repelled by it?
    I mean personally its been a huge factor for majority of people ive talked to about game.
    * shrug *

    Who knows though.. but 4 months ago, majority of players were pretty devotee backers.. and there isnt a single other mechanic NEAR thst agreed upon hate.
    Should say enough about people NOT playing right there..
     
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  19. Beaumaris

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    Keep in mind that with a hard cap, if you already had hit it, this would not be a feeling at all. There would be a feeling of no further advancement potential../ at all. That's when people quit. When the leveling treadmill ends.

    At least with the current SOTA system, one can take choose to take risks for more power to continue to test the fates to advance, knowing that if they fail they might lose a little.

    Personally I find it funny how many folks champion 'full loot PVP'; and 'permadeath' in other games. But come to SOTA and we cant stomach losing a fraction of a skill level that can be recovered.
     
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  20. StrangerDiamond

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    Then all my friends would have quit UO years ag... ooo... well they actually did, but only to join, UO again :) freeshards. They all hit the hard cap and kept playing ! Motivations change when you reach a certain level of proficiency .

    But nobody mentioned hard caps here... we're talking about an item durability hit, a change on the advancement curve, a money penalty... instead of a skill penalty because it gives a bad feeling overall from many perspectives.

    Ok I'm trying to remain sweet here but think about what you say... its an adventure game, and a virtual collector game. It's not a hardcore sandbox where risk+risk upon risk happens, and advancing gives you that much more power because the game is level/item based instead of skill based ?

    The goal is people playing together having fun trying harder stuff, thats the whole point of an adventure game.

    I'm not talking about defeating the dragon on my own here... I'm taking about the choices people make... should we try the crypt tonight ?

    "oh no, I made calculations my pool is too low we'll probably die more than twice and I don't wanna grind more tomorrow"

    We're looking to eliminate this type of thinking to the oubliettes. Like it never existed...

    We want people to see an infinite advancement possiblity sure, but not through punishing, rather through unlocking of plateau type quest-related achievements.

    That is to me the soul of ultima games and UO.

    My choices make the game... not my math skills.

    It's because its against a principle that was cultivated for many years because of ultimas... it changes a sacred foundation stone.

    Permadeath is when you chose it ONLY (it means that when you enter a certain RP scenario, because you want it to be epic, you can flag permadeath and hence the pvp that happens after is meaningful. (That is what I champion ALONG with RG and TH since the very first release)

    Full loot PvP is because there is risk and reward, a type of lottery which makes you feel powerful because you're on a lucky streak and keep winning so you keep playing and feel adrenalin rushes. Nothing sorcerous or evil about the fact I champion this, I saw first hand what a beautiful and homeostatic result it gave on the marvellous Siege Perilous server in UO that still endures to this day.

    Losing STUFF is not like losing SKILL.

    If I lost stuff I chose to bring that good stuff I don't wanna lose with me to be a LITTLE more powerful.

    I don't choose to bring my skills along, I have less choice, this is not empowering and LESS fun.

    But don't try to derail here, we're NOT talking about this but about the roleplay / lore related logic of King Robert who LOST the GMs he worked hard for in one death.

    He is NOT a powergamer, it affected him negatively, wake up !

    Most of us don't really mind, we still play, King Robert just said it a few posts ago, calm down folks !

    But the principle, and the mathematical stress it creates within the spirit, should be discussed in a coherent and respectful manner.
     
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