Insurance ?

"please tell me your kidding .that was one of the things that destroyed uo. I?m not trying to offend but please?. PLEASE keep that kinda thing in PVE ONLY."

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I don't really want insurance in PvE myself, as long as the gameplay is where it needs to be (in my opinion). And as I mentioned, such gameplay would put an emphasis on crafted gear, not rare boss/peerless drops you get from running a dungeon 200 times and *finally* having the RNG gods smile on you.

The KS gear, the very rare high level gear that may drop from peerless/bosses and perhaps a few other things could be managed by exception and "blessed" so they would not be vulnerable to being lost or looted upon death. Do that, make the rest of the gear at least somewhat easily replaceable by good crafters (at a price) and I'd see no need for insurance. I'd rather **not** have insurance in the game as long as a few items are "blessed" as appropriate. Everything else is replaceable.

 

Personally I don't think any item in game should be exempt from potentially being destroyed in combat. That takes away the element of risk and what you're willing to commit to a fight - better weaponry (or whatever) that increases your chance of winning but you run the risk of losing it, or worse weaponry for a smaller chance of winning the fight.

Insurance as a game mechanic is a bad idea IMO. Others have discussed the reasons why.

There is, however, an opportunity for a player-driven insurance market. Player A could insure player B's sword for $X per month, and pay out a pre-determined amount if the sword is destroyed. But this is really only feasible if there is a way to definitively prove the item was destroyed. Game logs can be forged, so there'd probably need to be something else and I'm not sure that something else will be available.

 

@?Knight Ziggerlin? MGT470 :

<blockquote>Do that, make the rest of the gear at least somewhat easily replaceable by good crafters (at a price) and I?d see no need for insurance. I?d rather **not** have insurance in the game as long as a few items are ?blessed? as appropriate. Everything else is replaceable. </blockquote>

Of course, losing only readily replaceable gear is about the same as only losing some gold, which is what the games without player looting typically have

The downside, though, for me at least, is that I just can't attach any real importance to gear that I have a chance to lose. A sword that will surely break or be lost has as much emotional attachment, for me, as a cake slice.

And I'm not sure if I'm an exception. Tales of people in UO having dozens of spare sets of gear gives me doubt about gear having any emotional attachment for most players in UO.

(Having any kind of enforced player looting would completely prevent myself from engaging in PvP, even consensual PvP, BTW. I'm utterly disgusted by the very thought of either looting someone else or being looted in turn, even if what I lose is readily replaceable. I would prefer even complete inventory destruction over player looting.)

@Hew:

<blockquote>Personally I don?t think any item in game should be exempt from potentially being destroyed in combat. That takes away the element of risk and what you?re willing to commit to a fight ? better weaponry (or whatever) that increases your chance of winning but you run the risk of losing it, or worse weaponry for a smaller chance of winning the fight.</blockquote>

The unique, and irreplaceable, KS items definitely need to be protected.

Do note, however, that the KS items are *beginner* items and things with limited to no combat usefulness (the most useful one is equivalent to a common health potion and is usable only once per real time day), which means this kind of protection should not cause any imbalance.

 

@Silent Strider, "Having any kind of enforced player looting would completely prevent myself from engaging in PvP, even consensual PvP, BTW. I?m utterly disgusted by the very thought of either looting someone else or being looted in turn, even if what I lose is readily replaceable. I would prefer even complete inventory destruction over player looting."

Looting is always your option, so if you don't want to loot, don't loot.

There were two kinds of PKs on UO Siege Perilous that the KGB dealt with. The first kind were those who fought 'the good fight', who didn't pick on newbies or miners/lumberjacks, but who would fight those capable of putting up a fight. For them, we'd take their weapons and reagents, but would res them, give them a recall scroll, and send them on their way.

The other kind of PKs were the griefers. Them, we'd dry loot, kill their horses, and dismember their bodies.

Player Justice. Tailor the punishment to fit the crime.

 

I'm sure I saw Richard Garriott talk about say for example a sword. You have had this sword for quite a bit now. It's been through many battles with you.

In time, this sword begins to transform, becomes stronger, its features change and so on and so on. It would still need to be repaired and stuff.

But this sword would also have an affinity towards you and in time this grows stronger, so strong that the bond cannot be broken. If someone tries to loot it, they would not be able to lift it. So something like that can be your soul insurance that you would not lose this particular sword.

Some of what I have written here is also what I saw in his idea when he was talking about it. I hope you will be able to understand what I'm envisioning.

 

Assuming that items are perishable: if crafted items are the best in the game then insurance is not needed. All it does is unbalance the crafting system.

Mind you as quality of items made via crafting increase they also should be increasingly difficult to make, one to distinguish (and reward) dedicated crafters and two to keep the relative rarity of said increasing quality items as there could possible be large number of players.

 

@Owain Your description of how the KGB worked doesn't sound bad at all. If only everyone were so reasonable.

I don't think looting is an option. By this I mean that I don't think I have any control over whether other people are going to hunt me down and loot me. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but it would seem that full loot could be an incentive for griefers. "Oh look, Fred has a longbow of uberness. Let's get about 20 people together and take it".

In some games, I have worked months to obtain an item. To lose it in such a fashion would be rough. To leave it in the bank would mean that I would never have spent the time to obtain it in the first place. In some games, gear means a lot (and is an accomplishment in itself).

Maybe player justice could deal with this. Maybe not.

One concern I have with crafted gear (and this coming from a longtime crafter) is that it means that the best gear is tradable. This means that people do not need to necessarily work for their gear. Well, not in the way they would in other games. (See Everquest's Firiona Vie server as an example)

So the insurance debate seems to hinge on whether gear should be important or not. If gear is worthless (easily replaced), then insurance isn't needed. If gear is extremely difficult to obtain, then the power shifts to the PKs. (I have to bring my A game 100% of the time, they have to get lucky once).
I see the potential for months of playtime to be wiped out in a minute.

I recognize that the ability to filter people out may have a huge impact on how much of an issue this really is. But I think the better these concerns are understood, the more likely we are to arrive at a compromise.

 

Item Insurance. Please NO !

 

Here are my opinions.

1) I don't like any system that is unrealistic, like insurance on gear.

2) I don't think you should ever have to worry about wearing your best gear anywhere in a game. I wouldn't even like the inconvenience of item decay if I wasn't a crafter. It's a must for a good crafting game.

3) I like PvP as much as anyone. But I don't want to have to have 5 sets of gear in case I have a bad night. I don't care if I win 3 times more than I die. Who wants to bother with re-equipping that much?

4) UO was fun in it's time with full looting in PvP. EQ corpse runs and TRAIN TO ZONE! were fun also. That doesn't mean they should be part of this game.

 

@Jonathon.Doran, ?Oh look, Fred has a longbow of uberness. Let?s get about 20 people together and take it?.

That is the thing, there should BE not longbow of uberness that takes months to get. If there is anything uber in the game, it should be YOU, not your gear. Love of gear is the root of all evil, and love of gear has warped just about every MMO out there until they are all nothing is just a gear grind, and everyone is so obsessed with their gear, they forget to play the game.

 

I vote no insurance and full looting. There has to be consequences and repercussions. IF you die and lose nothing then there really is no challenge. Your a ghost you go to find a healer. You get rezed you either run to your body before it decays or you lose it all. If your too scared to lose your stuff then you can always stay in town where it is safe and a bit boring I am sure..... Or you can actually go out and live an adventure and take a risk.... Just my 2 cents on it....

 

@Owain

"and everyone is so obsessed with their gear, they forget to play the game."

I totally agree with this statement.

 

No item insurance.

When I first got back into UO I thought, oh cool... now I can go adventuring a lone with my best gear and not worry. I then found I soloed everything, didn't worry about anything and it took a lot of the risk and social aspect of the game out.. sure I still socialized with some people and joined a guild and all that. But it just wasn't the same.

Even in trammel I'd still bring someone with me to kill stuff so if I died I didn't lose everything, or I wore 2nd or 3rd tier items. After insurance, I didn't care, and not caring isn't fun.

WoW has setup their challenges so you die, and die, and die.. and it really doesn't matter, you just try over and over and over again till you get it right. In early UO you feared you ran your heart raced, you panicked. You were triumphant or furious over losing something(even a hard to get pet). I felt more emotionally charged playing UO than any other MMORPG... I don't get that same feeling playing it now. Most of the time i'd run around in just clothes with 50-100 of each reg. so I wouldn't lose anything too valuable.

 

From my PvP Enigma Thread:

Another option, which i?m not sure could be implemented, is to have a separate tab in your avatar for your PvP gear. So one profile would have your PvE gear displayed (protected from looting) and the 2nd profile would have your PvP gear (open to looting)

So if you flagged for PvP from some method or entered a PvP zone or instance, your gear would switch over to the PvP Set.

This gear would be very simple and only crafted by other players. The stats on the weapons and armor would be capped but linked to the skill of the crafters. (Example: a GM Smith?s sword may do 2 pts more damage than a Master Smith?s at 90 skill).

This would create a slight gear gap early on but with a cap in place, it would make for a very fair and balanced system later. The top crafters would be sought after early in the game adding to their prestige.

Since it can be looted, it will keep crafters happy and you can smelt the gear down yourself into ingots for a profit.

This is just an example. Depending on the skill set, it may not work well for different combat styles. Mages might drop player crafted robes, staves or leather armor etc.

End Result..

No Insurance Needed

Balanced Gear

Lootable - To reuse or smelt down

Dependent on Crafters to Replace

No dependence on PvE, to gear up (So if you have no desire to do quests or dungeons to replace items, then you won't have to.

No worries losing the weapons or armor it may have taken you months to loot or mod.

 

If a developer reads this and is interested in implementing this mechanic, I'd be more than happy to help in its creation process.

 

I think they should just keep the gear relatively simple like in UO.

Yes to Full loot.
No to insurance.
No to separate tabs.
No to rare and powerful items that you can't bare to lose.

 

RG mentioned that items would be moddable and grow with you. I think simple gear is unlikely.

 

@Gunga Din - He have also said this -

Lord British informed us abit on his his opinion on dropped loot (NPC) compared to crafted loot in this crafting thread -

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?topic=player-made-vs-game-made-question-and-idea

@Lord British and I quote ? ?Oh, I also like the idea that dropped loot, is usually far more ?basic?: than crafted items, which gives value to a crafter! ? end quote.

Without letting the gear crafters create be the best there will be little need for crafters. It would also move the game alot closer a gear based games as World of Warcraft.

 

@Ara : Yes, but some of that crafted gear might be complicated to create or the resources difficult to acquire. Crafted yes, but simple .... doesn't look like it.

 

Providing crafting items are the top items in game then insurance should not be in game. For me when UO: AoS got released and came with all that new magic armor etc it ruined it for me. Took the skill and fun out of the game and became about how much money you had to just buy and insure the best gear. So keep gear relatively simple and allow for full loot is what i would be in favor for. But with some exceptions like UO had with rune books, spell books, newbie cloths etc being blessed. So mainly just lootable armor, weapons, resources.

Thats what i would like to see happen and have been waiting for