Dismiss Notice
This Section is READ ONLY - All Posts Are Archived

Is a discussion of the impact of economic issues in the game bad?

Discussion in 'Release 26 Feedback Forum' started by Keyman, Feb 2, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Cinder Sear

    Cinder Sear Avatar

    Messages:
    2,576
    Likes Received:
    3,836
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Spite
    Truly, that attitude is part of the problem you speak of in your OP. I like talking passive aggressively as well, but I don't find others too receptive when I do. :)

    P.S. I'm not rich ;)
     
    4EverLost, Mordakai and Spoon like this.
  2. Roycestein Kaelstrom

    Roycestein Kaelstrom Avatar

    Messages:
    4,627
    Likes Received:
    10,229
    Trophy Points:
    153
    If you weren't being a jerk on that original post, then my apologies for misunderstanding. It's hard to determine the tone based on the texts sometimes.
     
    Mordakai likes this.
  3. Cinder Sear

    Cinder Sear Avatar

    Messages:
    2,576
    Likes Received:
    3,836
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Spite
    There are lot's of threads started with negative posts.. discussion is important.. but it must be constructive, not designed to tear down others, but to build something we can all enjoy as best as possible together.

    Since this is not the post about economy, but rather why you can't post about negative aspects of the game (I've posted a few myself, with no issues), I will look for the economy post, because I am interested in reading the discussion on economy.
     
  4. Cinder Sear

    Cinder Sear Avatar

    Messages:
    2,576
    Likes Received:
    3,836
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Spite
    I do not see a thread where you have raised this issue, not nit-picking, but genuinely wanted to read what you had to say! :)
     
  5. Cinder Sear

    Cinder Sear Avatar

    Messages:
    2,576
    Likes Received:
    3,836
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Spite
    Maybe you meant you discussed this with people in game? If so, maybe you were talking to an especially grumpy crowd :) People are people... Try discussing the issues on the forum, I think you'll find a more welcoming and constructive discussion take place from us. Tho, people are people :D
     
  6. Ultima Codex

    Ultima Codex Avatar

    Messages:
    561
    Likes Received:
    1,273
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Edmonton, AB, Canada
    You know, sometimes, I can hear my kids squabbling in the basement, and all I have to do to restore calm is walk downstairs (sometimes putting some extra weight into my footsteps, for effect). Once they become aware that I'm a) still present in the house and b) still listening, the problem goes away.

    It doesn't always work; sometimes stricter discipline is required. But, often enough, it does.

    And I'm hoping something similar proves true here.
     
  7. HoustonDragon

    HoustonDragon Avatar

    Messages:
    1,526
    Likes Received:
    4,399
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    The phrase "exorbitant" is somewhat antagonistic and very subjective as it's a stated opinion. Are some of the pledges expensive? Sure, to me they are. I personally can't fathom dropping several thousand dollars on virtual property when there's a lot of cool RL swag I'd rather buy (and generally do instead)

    Does that mean that's the same for everyone? Obviously not, or we wouldn't have Barons and Lords and the various high roller backers. Ultimately, when the game goes to "permanent' with the final wipe and land rush, I think we'll be able to see more clearly how it impacts on players using in-game currency. Speaking for myself, I'm not (and have never been) a fan of microtransactions involving real money in gaming. I think it tends to lead to hard feelings and imbalance when folks are weighing their financial security against enjoyment from entertainment.

    Two cents worth, anyway. It's not something that can truly be judged until the game gets rolling in July, and we actually see the impact.
     
    stratigos, Elwyn and Snikorts like this.
  8. Spoon

    Spoon Avatar

    Messages:
    8,403
    Likes Received:
    23,554
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Sweden
    I have no idea why you you'd direct that at me when the passage you quoted have me saying that I've played several times as a basic pledge.
    You don't start with "literally" nothing. You always get starter gear - you have a whole first scene which you can plunder if you wish - and the basic pledge even starts with that fancy steampunk hat which adds another armor.
    For instance, in R26 the starting gear you get by selecting the path is actually better than the pledge gear. Starting as a mage the path gear gives you the same armor stats but with +7% focus. The pledge gear doesn't.
    Etc.

    The earning bit though is the key here. That earning is what creates a greater sense of accomplishment.

    Also please note that I said "hell yes" to it being an advantage.
    But it just isn't "a LOT harder". Combat isn't harder, gathering isn't harder, trading isn't much harder unless you compare to a prime vendor location (which you shouldn't), questing isn't harder. The only bit which is really more convenient with property is serious crafting using crafting stations, hence why I talked about that specifically.

    For that I think that Portalarium should redesign some of the scenes from the perspective of the base pledgers.
    If they everywhere where possible would move the bank closer to the crafting pavillions that would help enourmously.
    Like in Owl's if the bank moved into the alchemist or former bookshop house that would help. Or if in Ardoris the Bank switched places with the Ankh/Virtue building. Etc.

    :(
    They were planned for R26 then got booted to R34 in the rescheduling.

    You can see one in Ardoris, it is really a bunch of Agriculture planting beds which anyone can use.
    How they will solve stealing crops or hogging the entire bed they have had different answers on at different times, so I don't think we know the exact functions.

    Which is why I'm setting up such a private initiative instead which we are triaging right now in Lux.

    "to matter" ????

    Time spent in game is what matters. You can 'earn' thousands of gold per hour if you level hard and is dedicated. Its not hard nor difficult.
    You need to use the game though. So Public Vendors is certainly a key to that.
    If you refuse to craft and refuse to trade on Public Vendors then you can earn about a thousand gold per hour at level 60 just by killing stuff, looting and selling the loot to NPCs. I tried that last cycle with a basic account. It wasn't hard.

    When you hit those grandmaster and dedicate yourself to the "market" of Public Vending doing 10k/h isn't hard. With more funding you can start doing trades of buying low selling high with no need to gather yourself.
    That has become even more easy in R26.


    BUT again (since you and I have covered this several times during the last year).
    1st
    Time dedicated to the game.
    2nd
    Organize + socialize
    3rd
    addon/pledge advantages

    ONLY if 1 and 2 are equal does the pledger gain the advantage. Since 1 is what really matter, and 2 can give you everything in 3.

    So a dedicated crafter in a guild will "matter" much much much more in the game than any of the casually playing Barons or Dukes. They barely register on the "matter" on a game scale.
     
    Mata, 4EverLost, Mordakai and 2 others like this.
  9. Elwyn

    Elwyn Avatar

    Messages:
    3,617
    Likes Received:
    4,783
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    It sure made a major difference for me when I discovered the second banker in the Coats o' Arms shop in OH. (I'm sure there are people to whom that is still news!) That's still a bit far from the crafting pavilion. Solania was about the right distance, and Ardoris isn't bad either, but it could be closer, especially with the low frame rate. I have done both in my R20-R22 days.

    Not to mention that the planned regional economy should make it possible to profit by moving stuff through control points from one area to another where it is in less supply. I'm sure this is where "mobs can loot your corpse" will become important, even without PvP.
     
    4EverLost, Mordakai and Spoon like this.
  10. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    This is the second time I've seen you make this type of comment, Rune. What does "enough to matter in this game" actually mean?

    How would any player "not matter" in this game? I don't follow this at all. I choose the mantra of "We make our own fate. We tell our own lies." for Rats Nest for a reason. I believe all Avatars matter, regardless of what the Oracle tells us. We make our own destiny. We don't need automatons to tell us what that is or isn't. Likewise, we don't need "starting armor" or any other pledge rewards to make money.
     
  11. Snikorts

    Snikorts Avatar

    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    484
    Trophy Points:
    40
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Latvia
    Those who will take "sweet spots" during landrush will get most profit from vendors and subrenting houses. It will stack up even more with guilds. I would be pissed of with this system if I would try to make guild after landrush from newcomers with 45$ pledge :) . Also I don't see any options to change distitribution of
    power between guilds after LR.
     
    stratigos likes this.
  12. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    I think those are some fair questions/concerns to have as you initially look at the game. The reason I do not share those concerns is that the world is not static. There are regional economies and ultimately players go where they want to go, not where they have to go. If you make the best items in the game, they will come to you no matter how convenient someone's land rush claimed lot is. The players are more important than anything else in this game. For example, I know @Womby plans to open a bookstore. I know that he searches the lands for the best (and probably all) books so that he can keep a good inventory in his store. I don't really care what spot Womby gets in the land rush, you can bet I'm going to travel to his store and buy books regardless because he delivers a good service.
     
  13. Snikorts

    Snikorts Avatar

    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    484
    Trophy Points:
    40
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Latvia
    Well, Womby's case sounds more oriented on roleplay aspects. Certainly there will be other people like him, but I doubt that they will be big players in future economy. My guess is that players will hang out in certain spots more than in others and there will be plenty of vendors selling best gear available.
    Another thing to consider in the future is monetary devaluation. If you can earn 10k in one hour easily, but crafting items consumes a lot of time and resources, then prices will go up and Devs would have to adjust property prices acordingly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2016
  14. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Yeah I agree with everything you said.
    • Players will hang out in certain spots more than others and there will be plenty of vendors selling best gear available.
    • The devs will need to adjust costs to control monetary devaluation (aka inflation).
    But I don't agree that either of those things are inherently bad. The only possible way around some players having better spots than others is to have instanced public vendors. That doesn't fit what the game is going for. There are supposed to be winners and losers by design as the regional economy should adjust and adapt using supply and demand. The devs plan to constantly tweak this to keep the game fresh and the economy healthy. That economic churn will be opportunity for power to shift from one hand to the other in what should be a very challenging environment. It should not be (and is not designed to be) fair for every player by default (in the way that some theme park games are). It's going to take some work for everyone. No one has a free ride here, although there are certainly people that have paid real cash to get a leg up (there's no denying that). However, people that say they are "paying to win" are wrong, as they're not winning they're simply substituting money for time which is the same advantage someone has if they substitute time for money. Both still require "work" to be successful, neither time nor money equates to work. Work is something that uses up those two things.
     
    Acred, Womby and 4EverLost like this.
  15. Snikorts

    Snikorts Avatar

    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    484
    Trophy Points:
    40
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Latvia
    People who paid, will get permanent bonus for their investment and it is exclusive (free taxes, indestructible tools and crafting stations with bonuses). You will not be able to buy it after R32 even if you have same amount of money. There is possibility to buy some stuff for higher prices on forums, but again this is option for rich guys.
    I much prefer to have "cosmetics only" buffs. Everybody would start with same options and it would be communism utopia without elitism ;)

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2016
  16. bwtdozer

    bwtdozer Avatar

    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    597
    Trophy Points:
    40
    Just wanted to point out that the devs have said numerous times that crafting tools and stations will be craftable in game that will have better bonuses then those in the pledges. Those that have those items in pledges will have to decide between using their indestructible tools or use the limited use better bonus ones. So those items are only a "leg up" at the start. If I can craft a carpentry hammer with +10% bonus in game I'm gonna use that instead of my indestructible one.
     
    Acred, cartodude, stratigos and 2 others like this.
  17. Black Tortoise

    Black Tortoise Avatar

    Messages:
    1,961
    Likes Received:
    3,655
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Storm's Reach
    /agree those who crowdfund the most - i.e. support the game the most - should get better rewarded for allowing the game to happen in this way. I thank all the people with those giant castles in the game for paying for all the devs' lunches. This is not a reflection of reality, where the rich are mostly thieves (perhaps many generations prior), and have little egalitarianism or altruism (unless it comes with tax breaks). In this virtual reality world, the rich are often kind and giving, and often great contributors to the community.

    /agree that the real advantage is time available to play. i have pledged a decent amount (under $1K, though I have a sweet house and stuff), but i rarely have time to play, and cant play consistently. im at a huge disadvantage. in fact, Ive been playing since R10, and ive never even had a weapon beyond the starting gear. ive never been able to experience crafting beyond making 1 or 2 items. magic is beyond my reach. i barely even know where i can go to hunt/level. everyone seems to know this game inside-out compared to me. i feel lost and "left behind" most of the time. im not crying here, i am determined to succeed and make my experience enjoyable. Im just pointing out that I am the evidence that the best advantage in this game is having time to play. Without the pledge rewards I have, Id never be able to play this game at all. Lack of time is why I gave up on MMOs long ago, though it is my favorite game-genre.

    /disagree that you can have a "communist utopia without elitism" with cosmetic-only buffs. as I said above, I wouldnt be able to engage with this game if it werent for the pledge rewards I get. YOU would be the elite, and I would be the begger, wondering how the heck I can manage to get a suit of armor to stop these wolves from killing me so I can make a single coin off their skin. If I diddnt have my tax free village lot, I wouldnt play the game, its as simple as that. BTW I am of the "leftist" variety, so I dont speak from ignorance towards that c-word, it just simply isnt achievable with SoTA's biz model.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2016
    Fister Magee and Katrina Bekers like this.
  18. Snikorts

    Snikorts Avatar

    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    484
    Trophy Points:
    40
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Latvia
    I have understood that bonuses would be the same, but even indestructibility by itself opens potential for macroing. Free taxes has potential to influence economy.

    Again, time will tell...
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2016
  19. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes, and I acknowledged that here:
    You stated it very well too, the tax free lots and vendor as well as the crafting tools and stations are an advantage and yes there's a secondary market that allows players to obtain those items either in-game with gold or out of game with cash.

    However, we need to look at each one on an individual bases to understand the true environment. But before we do we have to understand the concept of TIME equaling MONEY and WORK using those components to "win". If we can't agree on this as a base for "reality" then we'll always disagree. My tax free deed for example required MONEY. Your taxed deed required TIME (to earn gold). If you have enough gold you could sell it for cash on the open market, nothing prevents you from doing that. So given enough TIME, you too can have MONEY. Just like I could hire someone with MONEY to level my character using TIME. They are essentially the same thing, they are both a part of the economy. But neither is a formula to "win", that requires WORK.

    Now then, lets look at each individual item mentioned:

    1. Tax Free Lots. This is really a decorative item. However it does hold value in the way space. Currently in the add-on store you can purchase 10 bank slots for $5. Or you can simply use 100 in-game gold for 10 slots. However the cost of in-game gold will go up with each purchase you make. TIME = MONEY is in full effect here.

    2. Tax Free Vendors. This is an advantage that currently would need to be competed against using a manual vendor. Meaning you'd have to have a person (that did not require taxes) manually vending a spot in the world. Now the advantage of this is your manual vendor can go anywhere in the world, not just on a property that you own. The manual vendor can also bark out interesting messages like "I have the best weapons in towns! Don't use these horrible automations!" and interact with people. However, the disadvantage is that a manual vendor is not a 24/7 device, and in pvp towns like mine could be attacked and looted. TIME = MONEY.

    3. Indestructible Tools. Yes, it's true that there are tools that will never break and this is a huge advantage over time. However the best tools in the game will not be indestructible. So a player that crafts or buys the best tools will have the advantage over anyone using an inferior tool.

    4. Crafting Stations with Bonuses. Similarly to tools, the best crafting stations will be craftable in-game. However they may also be found in-game in NPC areas like Hilt that have special forges. This means that no player is required to own a crafting station, but can instead use something that is public to all or buy something better on the open market. This includes public gardens for agriculture as well. TIME = MONEY.

    I would argue that because the world you describe would still require TIME and because TIME by itself does not equate to WORK but instead WORK = WORK and require either MONEY or TIME to produce "win", that would be an equally elitist environment that would favor TIME, and not all people have the time or patience for that type of game. In Shroud of the Avatar, we are offering people only one path to "win" the path of WORK.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2016
    Snikorts likes this.
  20. Snikorts

    Snikorts Avatar

    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    484
    Trophy Points:
    40
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Latvia

    I am in same position as you. I have work, child and plenty of stuff to do in real life besides SOTA and I am not planning to sit online 24/7 like I did in UO era.

    All my concerns are based on possible scenarios between power leveling gamers with pledges & without. There is possibility that it will influence also our gameplay in the long run.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.