Just noticed Decay for the first time

And in a few months when I hit those levels I will be crying more about it too. For some people, loosing what you earned is not something that is easy to handle.

 

Well, this should only be an issue if the power curve is too steep. If XP cost at higher levels is exponentially more expensive, while gains from skills exponentially more subtle... then high level players needn't go off the curve like that.

Say... if going from 100 to 200 in a skill gave you +10% benefit over the 1-100 progression, at 10x the XP cost of the 1-1o0 progression... it's still an edge to reward those who focused a lot on a skill but not enough to unbalance the overall power curve of the game.

And if the guy instead decides "I'll just have a whole lot of skills at 100 then" it's also no big deal because the Deck System means he won't ever be able to use them all at once, he'll just have more options for deck building, which personally I think it's fine.

The guy who plays a lot will have more build variety, but the guy who plays less could still have the few skills he focused on on a competitive level.

All this without the need for skill decay. A think the Deck System itself is already an effective "cap" as you can only do so much at once.

 

Humans are hardwired to be loss averse so it is only human nature to not want to lose something that you have worked hard to earn. Unfortunately because of this, I don't see how this is going to end well.

 

Just because you have something doesn't mean you're entitled to it. I don't agree with your use of the word "earned" here. It's a game, games have rules, and it doesn't really matter if during the development of the game you obtained massive amounts of XP just because you put a lot of time into it.

 

There is that.

While I believe that too much hand-holding on the other hand makes for a game that bores easily, certain things like XP/Progression loss will be a great repellent for new players, whether we like the system or not.

The fact that it caused so much controversy already should be a sign to at least try to explore some alternative.

 

I agree with you. However, I am hopeful that most new players won't think twice about it because "that is just how it has always been" from that perspective. Losing experience is a part of most episodic games. It is just packaged in different ways. The most common form of experience loss is called "new level cap".

 

If something is given to you then you might not be entitled. But if you put the time and work into earning it, you are entitled to it. Especially if it is within the rules of the game or life.

 

The game is in development. And Chris warned all players publicly that there would be decay.

You can spin it however you like, you're only entitled not to like it though.

 

You asked "why do you think all these people are fighting so hard to keep those levels" and I answered it. People are fighting so hard to keep those levels because they believe they earned them. Not everyone got those levels via exploitation.

 

Loses are as much as twice as psychologically powerful as gains. This is why I suggested a -10% xp debuff on death for 1 hr on 1st death and so on. Psychologically you do not take it as hard as you do not see it as taking a loss.

 

Not everyone got those levels by exploitation of control points. It's impossible to say if they achieved those levels through virtuous actions however. Some of them are no doubt exploiting the buffs right now. I'm not judging them either way, it's irrelevant to the long term success of the game, the levels still need to come down.

And actually, I think they "believe" that if they only yell loud enough, they can stop decay from being a thing.

 

You know... I wasn't even going to bother, since arguing with BDF is pretty much as useful as my cat trying to catch the red laser dot.

Couple of things initially.
Your condescending tone to anyone who goes against your opinions is tough to read through, and im a huge fan of the the sarcastic non-productive posts you've included in this thread.

You keep talking about how decay is only effecting those high level players. How decay is basically how they chose to limit the *power gamers*, and you've repeatedly *discussed* how its those players that are the ones complaining about it.

Honestly, i challenge someone to try and play SOTA with only an hour or so play time each session, and try to progress their character. Come back with full decay each time, and then try to *try new zones! Group up for bosses! Push higher level content! * and tell me how productive it is in your character progression?

This whole discussion and interpretation of the Dev's answer implies that its only the fact high end players don't like decay. And i would even argue that isn't the case, as decay become less of an issue, the more time you can put in per session. Meaning those people that *EARNED* those levels, are essentially getting the most exp between deaths. Despite the fact decay doubles down on people past that point.

I find it humerous that people think level 80 is that sweet spot where people should level out. Considering that limits you from doing pretty much ANYTHING past 5 skull. Zones that are solo-duo able in a measly few weeks of playing. And the belief that 80 is a good sweet spot, i encourage you to go try doing higher end content in a group once in a while, with people that level. Not only does it become stale REALLY quickly when you realize that people are generally reluctant to risk loosing TIME / PROGRESSION, just to try new content. You try to do this on a limited time schedule. Since between loading, walking, buffing, ooc time and such, a death can set you back a good 30-45 min of actual straight,max exp farming time.

Your ignoring the part that higher end players hit a point where they need to either devote, or not devote to SOTA.
If im hovering around 90, now i decide if im happy with easily farming T6 and under stuff non stop. Or if i want to go another 5 levels or so to try NEW STUFF in the game. And suddenly now, my penalty is even greater.. So to surpass the death hassle and get stronger over all, i now have to level up more.
Now your talking about a game that is supposed to be a solo game, limiting players from a huge % of the content, because they dont want to player 2-3 hour sessions to offset those death penalites as they get higher.

Im at 92? almost 93 now, my penalty is about 150k.
Ive finnally accepted the fact SOTA forces you to be a gross hybrid to move forward past a certain point. So for me to be able to run the RISE, or Krul, or god forbid the FALL. (and this is ignoring PVP completly) ive had to take other skills i dont even WANT to have, up just to handle these areas. You know why im pushing? Because im one of those people who enjoyed the game early on, and did so by leveling and trying out zones the first month or 2. The PROBLEM was it was disgustingly easy for me to be in anything but skull 5, by the end of around 2 weeks. So keep things interesting and become able to do higher end stuff, you have to push.

Essentially what im saying, is basically fine with the fact you have lots of content, lots of zones to do.. because you havnt played the actual adventure game much.
Or maybe you dont play with people much or w.e .

But you HAVE to hit higher levels, to hit higher end stuff. OR you have to convince people to run it with you in a group setting, where with the exp split, the loot split, its not better yielding then their solo farming. So your asking people to *come gain less exp, risk loosing a bunch, just so i can see higher level stuff! * And this is where a lot of people have issues.

Decay is unappealing to risk things.
You can say * Well that one time i ran a dragon with some friends and I died and i didnt mind! *
But theres people that have spent the majority of their time playing this game, killing ****. And are sick of running Skull 5 zones.. And are not crazy about being set back time, just for trying to get to a point they can do new stuff.
Try to advertise this game to a friend, and explain to them the decay system. I know i cant? I know i've had guildies and RL friends quit playing because of the sheer stupidity of having the game reverse your character progression. In a system that is already incredibly taxing on time/exp to get anywhere.
Try to argue with them, when trying to play 1-2 hours TOPS, and always pushing for newer/stronger stuff.


The dev's answer in Reddit was weak. So NO, I dont see it as a * They already answered it, so im ignorant for bringing it up. * I see it as, this game is still listed as *IN DEVELOPMENT, GIVE FEEDBACK* So im going to continually point out how stupid of a mechanic the death decay is. How from personal experiance, as someone who brought a large community INTO this game, and is now struggling to keep interest in it, i have seen no real justification for the decay, except as a soft cap.
You have deck limits, you have the MASSIVE curve of exp. Theres your limits.
They could literally have any other penalty on the death decay, and it would be better. So *lack of agreed upon options? * I guess its easy to leave it, then to fix something thats got the community split down the middle. And this is ignoring the fact that the people still playing SOTA are the ones who are toughing it out. The people who already thought decay was dumb enough to leave over, left. The concern should be future players, not leaving a bad mechanic because the small community here cant agree on something better.


So in summary - Its a stupid mechanic. It goes against the premise of the game which is adventuring. It turns people off from taking risks. It punishs people for playing in smaller sessions, and basically tells people to play a lot, or dont play at all.
Its one of the reasons i stopped trying to bring people into this game. Its one of the reasons i play other games with friends who wont touch this one.


And lastly -

We really want to go into what the dev's have said Publicly of whats going to be in SOTA, and whats not here?
Your right, the game is in development. Meaning that this mechanic shouldn't be anymore set in stone then any other.

You can spin that how ever you want, but why is Decay something that will always be here, over anything else?

 

Where do the levels need to come down to?
What do you consider to be the * point where everyone should level off at? *

Since Decay scales, why do you think it only effects high end players?
Do you disagree that the decay turns people off from taking risks?
Would you say grouping up for riskier/higher end content is more likely to cause a death?
Would you say that the majority of people leveling up in SOTA are doing it in safe/regular zones?

Do you personally play with a lot of high end players?
Do you personally play with a lot of brand new - newer players?

Yet another death penalty that is better then the current.

 

I didn't say it had to be in the game. I said that whatever solution we have MUST bring the highest XP players back down to earth.

If you or others are suggesting something that doesn't do that, then you're failing to address the problem.

 

Where is the line where you feel players need to be brought back down/limited currently? What adv level?

 

With all the ideas out there I really think decay can be worked on and fixed going forward without an issue.

Seems the elephant in the room is what to do with players who have gained enormous xp pools thru broken mechanics that were originally understood to be working as intended? I can't blame those players as I seen bug reports and the issues took way too long to fix. I would personally side with these players unless it was stated as an exploit by Port and continued to be used. In that case, I feel the devs have an obligation to the player base to make things right. Unfortunately, this is an issue I do not have a solution for.

 

My preference would be to have a moving average based on the entire population. With such a low population, that number would probably hang close to level 100. As the population grew, so too would players ability to progress. As more players reached the "end game" it would expand room for players to move ahead. Essentially it would be a constant bell curve. This means that players that were at the top would stay at the top but not move so far ahead that they ruined the game.

 

And where do you feel that line is now?

Your claiming that theres enough high end players already that this decay needs to be what brings them in reign.

But how far are we out of persistance? And do you feel the *Average* has gotten there with exploits? Because i would wager that the average *line* right now is well over 80 for the player base here.

I would be super super curious, if they averaged all the players BELOW level 100 ( Eliminate people who might have gotten there with *Exploits* ) , and subtract all POT owners from the equation.. What is the average player level RIGHT now?

The average player going into the future isnt going to be a POT owner.
The average player going into the future wont hit 100 + as fast as some people did (Although with group/powerlveling thats a whole different debate).
So whats the average Adv level right now for the population that would fit the *Average* player in SOTA right now would you wager?

And at WHAT point do you think your argument, that decay is only crushing the top tier players, goes into effect?

Im 92, and Im against decay completely. While if i sit in the same safe spot all day/night when i play sota, i can recoup the losses pretty easily. It completely turns me off from wanting to go after bigger stuff unless i know for a fact we can take it.
It even is part of the reason that i have to either A - Devote a LOT more time for EXP to get into higher end content, or B - Play a lot less/not at all... as the content is getting stale.

Wheres the line right now where you consider the players * high end* enough to be the ones complaining about decay right now?

Edit -

The split of the exp loss per death being 1/2 then 1/2 etc etc is and was a huge change in the right direction. I also wonder why he stepped away from the *decay accumulates only in adv zone and online * way. As even THAT would be enough to justify it IMO and make a lot more sense.
But honestly the whole accumulating exp loss when offline, in a character progression game is silly to me.
Theres a reason i cant think of a game off the top of my head, that does it this way.

 

Actually I'm not saying that at all...

I'm saying there are a few super high end players and they are screw up the curve.


Here's a very simple way of explaining it. Say for the sake of argument we have X players playing this game. The levels for each player are all over the map between level 1 (people that just logged in once and quit) and level 90. But then there are a small handful of accounts that have level 120+ characters on them. If you charted that out, it would look something like this.



The red lines would be players that need to come back down to earth. They're WAY outside the rest of the pack. In this fictional population of our game, that would be players over level 100. As the bell grows, so too does our allowance of what we will let players achieve in game. Perhaps that means in 6 months we allow players to reach level 105? It really depends on the overall health (and power) of the entire community. To me, that's a very sound way to accomplish our goals of not allowing a few players to ruin the game for everyone else because they either exploit or have too much time on their hands.

 

I guess I got used to death having a cost (which imo it should) because the 1st game I player.. a Multiplayer Online (Massively wasn't a thing yet) starting in '95. I can't wrap my head around the concept that death should have no sting.

At the same time.. I can't wrap my head around the "logic" of those who say.. "you'll do what you're supposed to do.. RP" Maybe I'm just simple minded but to me, one of the attractive things about SotA is that.. like RL, you'll not be pushed into a little box...

I don't give a rats ass that somebody wants to play 16 hrs/day and rack up a gajillion XP.. if that makes them happy.. go for it. There will always be some who whine WHINE WHINE that things aren't balanced because somebody else put in 10x the time they can and have therefore advanced further. I hope we'll see performance soon that will allow for development of content that can't possibly be soloed.. and ya.. where you go in knowing death is a possibility. You Die, rex up and get back in the saddle.

In another vein, I could care less if somebody else is made happy by dressing up in glitter and wings and going to dance parties.

No offense to those who have tons of XP (that earned it legit) but yo DOH, you gotta maintain it. I played trumpet professionally for a time and while I never made it to the top tier I count several of the best players as having been friends and associates. Among tpt payers we have a saying: "You miss one day (playing) and YOU know it. You miss 2 days and all the people in the section know it. You miss 3 days and EVERYBODY knows it! Why is that? it's because you have to constantly work to maintain your skill lvl. I can't take a month off playing and then come back and expect that because I "earned" my skill that it just sits there in a constant state of readiness.

Death is real and decay is here.. to stay.

I realize that in development you need testing and that means ALL the levels of content. I've mostly avoided things that were (to MY mindset) end game type stuff because I didn't want to ruin the game for myself. That's me... others play it differently.

What i WISH they'd do now is get rewards in for the avg player. Finish the damned skill trees.. make crafting make more sense....get rid of COTO item repair and make it a skill thing so ppl NEED a crafter

stuff like that..

apologies if my rambling goes off the rail but I think in the spirit of the OP I'm not that far off..