Lained's Coat of Arms

Discussion in 'The College of Arms' started by Lained, Apr 12, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Lained

    Lained Avatar

    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    3,428
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Yeovil, England
    I've recently upgraded to Lord and have been thinking about my design. I've a couple that I've been playing with in paint shop pro though I've now skill what so ever. Whilst browsing the forum I noticed that my avatar has colours that match very close to those used in the generator (Or, Sanguine & Orange) and figured it could be made up of two custom charges as follow, if so I'd prefer to use it rather than the couple I've been mocking up.

    [​IMG]
    It'd probably need some tidying up to make the colours more solid for the generator and the bottom right point could use a curl to match the others, I'm still undecided on the background colour at the moment but am leading towards black or white.​
    XX
     
  2. Jarikith

    Jarikith Avatar

    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    445
    Trophy Points:
    30
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Eugene OR
    The main problem I could see the College having with this specific image is that it seems to be very abstract, by which I mean to say that I, personally, have no clue what that's supposed to be, other than some weird swirly-ish vaguely star-like object.. maybe a flower? Which rather defeats the purpose of Heraldry. Arms over all and their subcomponents (such as charges) should be something able to be readily and accurately described so that they are A) identifiable and distinct from other arms B) easily replicated by any given Heraldic artist with the end result being mostly identical (barring artistic style difference from artist to artist).

    Now imagine you're on the field of battle and you need to find the one guy sporting that particular image on his shield and fight him to win the day. Or that you need to go to an artist and have them whip up that particular image (or something very very close to it). Got that? Now try to either find that symbol or have it made without the luxury of just showing that image to someone and saying 'Find the guy with this and hit him' or 'Copy this onto my shield'. If you cannot describe specific part of the arms in with just a few words and have it accurately recreated, then it's probably straying outside the scope of Heraldry.

    Now if that image is supposed to represent something, like a specific flower or star shape or.. whatever.. I'm sure one of the Heraldic artists could design something less abstract using that concept as a base that would work for in game and heraldic purposes. Of course this is all just my two cents worth, the College my feel it's a fine.. whatever it is even with it being as abstract a shape it is to my eyes. :p
     
  3. Lained

    Lained Avatar

    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    3,428
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Yeovil, England
    Yes it is fairly abstract, it's a fiery star. I've been using it as an online avatar for many years and so closely identify with it which is why I thought about using it for my in game arms as we are playing ourselves in game. I wasn't sure if it'd fit with the rules of the college but prefer it over the more traditional ideas that I've initially been playing with so I thought I'd get some feedback first, so thanks and I await for a more authoritative decision. I'm also not opposed to someone more artistic than myself using this as a basis for an idea.
     
  4. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

    Messages:
    4,065
    Likes Received:
    10,893
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Kansas City
    What Jarikith said is correct.
    You have to ask yourself if you could describe the design to an artist in one or two sentences, and the artist would then draw something that could be recognized as the same thing.

    So, if the blazon is "Argent, a fiery star of 8 points sanguine and Or", it might be drawn more like a sun by one artist, more like a chaos star by another artist, or as you have it when drawn by you.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  5. Adiun Tesserande

    Adiun Tesserande Avatar

    Messages:
    577
    Likes Received:
    670
    Trophy Points:
    75
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    College of Arms Building, Kingsport
    Jarikith is dead on here.

    What a lot of people tend to think of when they think 'heraldry' is 'what would I want tattooed on my body that describes me best'. In reality, what heraldry is really meant to do is to provide an easily-recognizable image that speaks to the /viewer/ and says 'this is this person'.

    That said, there is the possibility of making a mullet, estolle, or even sun enflammed. If you are willing to wait until one of our heraldic artists or cornets happens to find this thread, they could show you examples of each and you could see what we're talking about with these terms.
     
  6. NirAntae

    NirAntae Avatar

    Messages:
    1,368
    Likes Received:
    2,688
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Mississippi
    Yep, Jarikith hit it on the head.

    I wonder, though, if we could recreate "something similar" that would be close enough. Such as the sun of Novia (the middle symbol Frank posted, which we really need to decide on a good name for), with a sanguine fimbriation, that is perhaps a gyronny of Or and sanguine, or draconny Or and sanguine, or something of that nature.

    I have to run for the afternoon, but would one of our artists care to take a stab at a couple of possibilities?
     
    Adiun Tesserande likes this.
  7. Lained

    Lained Avatar

    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    3,428
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Yeovil, England
    Does having an "Argent, a fiery star of 8 points sanguine and Or" design preclude someone else having one of the similar description yet a differing design as these two appear very different on the battlefield could be construed as the same (given most players have little heraldry knowledge let alone its naming convention) and lead to the death of the wrong individual?

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  8. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

    Messages:
    4,065
    Likes Received:
    10,893
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Kansas City

    If everybody follows the rules, the confusion you describe should not happen.
     
  9. Lained

    Lained Avatar

    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    3,428
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Yeovil, England
    That was my question is it a hard rule or judgement that disallows conflict based on existing arms?
     
  10. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

    Messages:
    4,065
    Likes Received:
    10,893
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Kansas City

    Yes. Or, as strict a rule as we can make it.
    If somebody registerd "Argent, a sun orange", then later somebody submited "Argent, a chaos star orange". We'd reject the chaos star. We'd need at least two points of difference.

    [​IMG]
    Typically, the person would then do something like "Argent, a chaos star orange fimbriated sable". There are two points of difference, the charge and the fimbriation. So technically legal, so I would probably approve. (As Ronan points out, fimbriation would not be enough difference).
    [​IMG]

    But then one or two of the other sovereigns could reject, and we'd vote on it.
     
  11. Ronan

    Ronan Avatar

    Messages:
    1,796
    Likes Received:
    2,621
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Wild in Westend!
    http://soacoa.org/wiki/College:Rules

    Distinctiveness

    Arms can only be registered if they are sufficiently distinct from every other registered arms. In practice, to be considered distinct, there must be two significant differences of the field or of at least one primary charge. For this purpose, the following differences are considered not significant:
    • A distinction between gules, sanguine and murrey;
    • a distinction between azure and blue celeste;
    • the presence or tincture of fimbriation;
    • a change in the attitude of an animal;
    • a change between most animals without a change in attitude;
    • a distinction between a semy of a charge and six or more individual charges;
    • a change of the styling of an edge, unless it is for a party of the field; and
    • a distinction in the number of a charge unless there are fewer than four.
    Hard fast rules developed by Portalarium and the College of Arms to prevent confusion.
     
  12. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

    Messages:
    4,065
    Likes Received:
    10,893
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Kansas City
    Ah yes. Thanks Ronan for quoting the rules. Fimbriation is not considered significant, so I'd have been wrong to approve "Argent, a chaos star orange fimbriate sable", and the other sovereigns would be correct in shooting it down. Adding a border, on the other hand...
    [​IMG]
     
  13. Jarikith

    Jarikith Avatar

    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    445
    Trophy Points:
    30
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Eugene OR
    Assuming that we get the ability to overlay charges in the final generator, might something like this (colored up appropriately) work? A SotA Sun with the compass star upon it? I think it captures the essence of something distinctly A Star (rather than The Sun) with being on fire/fiery without need for an entirely new charge. Of course that will all depend on whether the generator could overlay the two charges.... and whether Lained even likes it I suppose. ;)
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

    Messages:
    4,065
    Likes Received:
    10,893
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Kansas City


    We'll be able to overlay charges, but I'm not sure how this could be colored and not break the rules of tincture.
    If the sun were yellow, the field could not be white.
    If the sun is orange and half the star is any shade of red, we have color on color.

    If the sun was red and voided, making it an outline. Then the star could be yellow and orange (and ugly), but then I think we've strayed into line heraldry (bad).
     
  15. Jarikith

    Jarikith Avatar

    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    445
    Trophy Points:
    30
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Eugene OR
    Yes. I was concerned about that as well.. which is why I left it entirely argent, because I have no clue how the two charges would actually end up being colored and not at least bend some rule part of the rule if not break it entirely. :p The star could be entirely Or and the sun Sanguine, that would result in only metal on color I suppose.
     
    Sir Frank likes this.
  16. Ronan

    Ronan Avatar

    Messages:
    1,796
    Likes Received:
    2,621
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Wild in Westend!
  17. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

    Messages:
    4,065
    Likes Received:
    10,893
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Kansas City
    Not sure we're making progress.
    [​IMG]
    Maybe we should try another road?
     
  18. Lained

    Lained Avatar

    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    3,428
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Yeovil, England
    Can charges be resized and rotated?
     
  19. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

    Messages:
    4,065
    Likes Received:
    10,893
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Kansas City

    Resized, yes. Rotated, probably.
     
  20. Ronan

    Ronan Avatar

    Messages:
    1,796
    Likes Received:
    2,621
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Wild in Westend!
    Lained, just the first image you presented in sanguine, if the lines were thicker think of a golden fill color and a sanguine outline. Choosing that combo you would only be able to place on a black field, but it might look good.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.