Levels VS Skills (voting)

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by VampireKB, Nov 30, 2014.

?

What level system better?

  1. leveling with points.Points could be used for any skill.

    21.8%
  2. Percentage leveling of a used skill

    78.2%
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  1. Lord_Darkmoon

    Lord_Darkmoon Avatar

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    I think it is way too late to change this. I am also not very fond of the system we have now as I don't like the fact that I can get better at casting spells although I just use swords all of the time. Also I think that the system we have now encourages and even supports grinding and I hate grinding. But as I said I fear that it is too late for changing it...
     
  2. Lord-Galiwyn

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    I dont think that People who started back in Kickstarter, cared what system was used.
    I joined the game in jan 2014, i love the way it is going.
     
  3. Lord_Darkmoon

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    Richard once said that he didn't want grinding in the game But now we have a system that supports grinding...
     
  4. Borg

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    AoC uses a similar system , 100% grinding mobs you earn points you spend in the skills tree, SotA is very similar to AoC in many aspects.
    When playing I don't really have the feeling of character advancement, I just feel like a hammer grinding the anvil........

    Edit:
    That was exactly the reason I left AoC......
     
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  5. Borg

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    80% Vs 20% should give you a hint.......
     
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  6. Logain

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    First of all, I don't mind either system, hence I'm not going to vote, but this very comment was too funny to pass, so I simply have to comment on it.
    Yes, this is exactly how an abbreviated (this word is important!) version of real life works. Knights didn't become knights by taking a wooden sword as peon and frenetically waving it in the air. The squire learned the art of fighting at a trainer. Alchemists didn't just take whatever they found and mixed it, but studied with a master. I'd be willing to wager that even you took lessons in school at a mathematics teacher instead of simply trying to reinvent learning mathematics from scratch. The concept of using a trainer/book to master a skill (and profit from their previous knowledge) instead of just blindly 'using' that skill is the sole core concept of specialisation, which is the foundation of our modern civilisation.
    Yes, there is personal exercise required in that process as well, but that exercise is hardly ever under 'real conditions', which is why it is 'tedious' (ask kids at school ;) ). This is where the keyword abbreviated comes into play. The 'tedious' (non fun) part is not included other than in the 'roleplaying' aspect, else we'd have to drink/eat every some hours, we'd have to sleep every so often, we'd have to use the bathroom, clean our teeth, ... I hope you get the idea. You can safely assume that paying a trainer to gain your skill is going to come with several hard training lessons for your avatar.


    Without wanting to be mean, you should have read the proposed design first instead of anything else. It (the system) was rather outlined right from the get go. What you should do though is wait for release and then judge the finished product instead of a few core systems. Training is one of the points that has seen maybe a tenth of what is planned and some of that is drastically going to change how you might perceive the process.

    On that note, has anybody considered simply asking how much of a 'usage based' training the skill trainer quests are going to include on the next Dev Hangout?
     
  7. Beaumaris

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    I think we are getting what LB promised. My view is that adventuring and slaying monsters in general, over and over, is not grinding. That is simply playing the game. Grinding is something more specific. It is a behavior wherein one must implement the exact same task over and over to advance in a specific way. Sure it may be possible to grind in SOTA, but the current SOTA system rewards a player for adventuring, regardless of how they do it. It does not require repetition of one specific task in one specific way to advance. You can use melee, ranged, magic, etc. and still advance as you wish. You can stop a grinding behavior any time you wish, try something new, and still advance. The past UO system is different. By design, it requires the player to repeat a specific task over and over to advance in one specific way. And there was no way around that. You don't have much of a choice but to do that task if you want to level a skill. That most definitely leads to and promotes a grinding behavior, practically by definition. The point though is not to say that past system is bad. Just that it most definitely had specific grinding behaviors required to advance, moreso than the more general SOTA advancement system has. Both can be fun. But one definitely has more grindiness to it, and it is not SOTA IMHO.
     
  8. Borg

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    Yea right, you can grind different skills in order to advance your character the way you want, that's true, but still grinding.
    But at least in UO you had the feeling of character advancement, here you can grind crafting donuts to master magery.
     
  9. c0hlera

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    Yes , LOL. I understand the JRPG map because it make the game so much lighter and better to make so they can focus on other things but the skill system makes it only enjoyable for noobs. I already pledge but the only reason I don't fully regret is the great community around this game also I enjoyed the craft system enought to keep playing it but if I could get a refund I would.. then I would subscribe to ultima online and play it for a few months ahah it will never be the same... at least not with this game I think... but this game is still pretty good anyway.. not epic but still very good
     
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  10. Logain

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    You're taking a rather high moral ground there when a good deal of voters that favour 'your' system openly confess that they would leave their computer to play the game for them. I'm not entirely convinced that running a macro is taking any more skill that killing creatures and players (once PvP rewards come into play as planned) in order to advance ^^

     
  11. Ice Queen

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    That's all it is currently, a boring, grind. Gathering and killing elf after elf is the worse, since it's worthless to grind out gathering and crafting items to sell to merchants. Every time there's a way to make decent gold, they take it away, heh. If it were to go live as it is, can you imagine what one piece of armor would cost you from someone? It would be outrageously priced, and I feel it would push more casual players into buying gold from gold farmers, even more. I'm not saying I'm against people buying gold from gold farmers, though I've never had the need or want to. I'd rather get my in game items and gold myself, rather than from a gold farmer, or I'd buy add-on items to sell for in game gold. I could see more people buying things from the add-on store too, just to sell for gold in game, which I suppose, it could be set up this way on purpose, for the benefit of more income from the add-on store. If it were like it is now at live, I'd definitely go that route for sure and buy add-ons to sell in game sometimes to make some easier money. I'm not saying I'm surprised at all, since it's a buy to play game, and they will depend heavily on the add-on store at release.

    Most mmorpg's I've played make it easier and more importantly, fun to gather my own mats, craft my own items, and make my in game gold from selling to other players through personal merchants or auction house. In most games I love gathering, crafting, fishing, killing mobs for gold and items, etc. etc. I suppose they make the grind funner to me. I have several people in my family that I usually end up providing potions, items, and gold to, because they have less time to do those things. With Sota, it's the worst grind I've ever seen in a game and it's not fun, so I don't even bother much with gathering and crafting anymore, because it takes too many materials and repair kits, to make it worth the time. I'm hoping the yield from nodes and the lack of many nodes in a scene is just because it's Pre-Alpha. Currently it feels like the gathering system is set up for selling boosts from the add-on store later on and buying add-ons to sell for gold in game, (not sure what their intentions are on that) but that's how it feels to me right now. Buy a boost for extra yield bonuses, buy a boost for extra gold drops from mobs, etc. etc.
     
  12. majoria70

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    Well I am hoping the grind is a temporary condition imposed on us for pre-alpha, and that once we see the game it will be so much more interesting. And for worste grind I'd probably say Tera or Aion, although I haven't played either game in a while so I 'could' definitely be wrong there. I have to hang on to the hope and to what the Devs comment periodically that we are not seeing the whole picture which distorts our experience of what is to be. lol hope I make sense, I do need to go make the coffee, sheesh.;)

    So here again I'm reminded of the quote: "If you only look at what is, you might miss what could be." I want to see beyond all the prealpha, beta etc, and yes I think that sometimes I want the magical crystal ball to show me, but even then I'm sure there are things in RL if I saw ahead I would be sorry I had seen them early. :)
     
  13. Blake Blackstone

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    Less Grind=Better. imo

    I know statistics show it is supposed to help with player retention but Id like to see that challenged and changed.
     
  14. Ice Queen

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    I'll take your word on those two games, I've never played them so couldn't use those to gauge the worse grind for me, so Sota still takes that prize for me atm, hehe. :) I'm sure it won't be as bad later, to me, it's probably just the result of an incomplete game and the possibility of add on boosts being built to surround it. We won't know til later, for sure.
     
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  15. Freeman

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    Fundamentally untrue.

    RG was talking about a system where there were no health bars, and maybe even hiding some of the other stats from you. Let you just play the game. This came up from his team, and while he's decided it's what he wants in the game, it wasn't the original idea for those of us watching in the beginning.
     
  16. TantX

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    Or even a year or more before "the beginning" back when this was supposed to be "The Ultimate RPG".

    How far we've come...
     
  17. Dirk Hammerstrike

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    What system doesn't support grinding? But still has some measure of growth?
     
  18. Lord_Darkmoon

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    At least some systems are not as "in your face" with grinding... And to be honest, I would have prefered a system like in Pillars of Eternity or Dead State in which you do not get EXP from combat. This removes grinding.
     
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  19. TantX

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    UO had grinding, but anyone who's heard "BOBS FOR BOB!" before seeing greyscale knows that a bunch of random bald newbies in pink robes can kill just about anything and anyone they put their mind to. Non-level-based systems lend themselves to that a bit better than leveling systems. Again, on UO, an 80 Swordsman could still kill a 100 Swordsman (my end skills were GM Archery/Swords/Resist, 90 Wrestling/Anatomy/Healing, 80 Tactics, rest Magery) - the difference between GM and 80 or 90 wasn't a game-breaker at all. In other games, it can easily mean being two-shotted. Not saying SotA will be because of it, but just as an example.

    And while you could grind/macro in UO, it was often short-lived in later years (most freeshards allow for 2-3 days GMs, and production allows you to get to GM relatively fast, as well). The measure of growth? Owning a home. Collecting rares. PvP/guild/faction warring and turf wars. PKing and stealing. Those are meaningful measures of growth; ultimately, given enough time, everyone will have maxed out skills and so much gold they wouldn't know what to do with it all.

    But if that's all there is to truly measure growth, then there are bigger problems than grinding out levels.
     
  20. Dirk Hammerstrike

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    In Sota we have 3 ways to get xp:

    Questing - granted the xp is not a lot but it is there. And my understanding is that a far greater portion of the questing stuff is turned off for now.
    Crafting - for which we get diminishing returns, and reduces the incentive to grind...
    Combat - which still makes no sense... spiders and ghosts do uber damage to me but their xp is pretty pathetic in comparison. It definitely promotes grinding.

    But I don't think we need to throw out the baby with the bath water.

    Perhaps (like crafting now) combat should offer a steadily decreasing degree of return. Then the optimal players will be those that do all 3 of the leveling options.

    So... Pillars. XP for questing. Thats nice. But in an MMO you want to encourage various play styles. If I don't want to quest, there needs to be something for me. Sota offers that. Likewise for a fighting grind only game... if I don't want to that... its nice to have the alternative. Given that, I would think Sota is doing pretty good. Offering all options. It does seem to benefit grinding too much, but you don't HAVE to grind. Its a choice.

    I would like to see PvP give some xp as well, but there on a very rapidly diminishing scale. And optimally.. for any 2 pairs of fighters, give say 4 or 5 chances for XP. The winner gets XP from the loser so its a zero sum from the game perspective, and will be less prone to abuse.

    Also there are ways to take the leveling out of your face. They could have some system to auto-assign points based on usage, hiding all XP values, skill level values and just say hey you learned how to do this... or do this better. But personally I do like the under the hood access to character dev...
     
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