macroing

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by inactive, Sep 2, 2013.

?

Is complex macroing the avatar actions bad for the game?

  1. no

    11.3%
  2. yes

    41.9%
  3. Depends

    14.5%
  4. no, but if its abused it hurts everyone!

    11.3%
  5. yes, but i dont like doing repetitive thing over and over for hours!

    9.7%
  6. no, and it could be very helpful in running player events

    6.5%
  7. yes just because i dont want to learn how to create macros

    4.8%
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  1. rild

    rild Avatar

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    The combat system Richard and the devs have been designing is intended to further engage the player for enjoyment and prevent some exploit by requiring human attention. This is one way they are combating these issues.
     
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  2. Kilhwch

    Kilhwch Avatar

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    I'm just gonna throw this out there - macroing can be useful for automating a series of tasks and can even be fun!

    For instance, I am right now at work, and crafting in FFXIV. I know; very bad. But I am not busy...

    Now I've written a macro using the in-game macro toolset. It runs a series of commands; Ability 1, wait 3 seconds, Ability 2, etc...

    As I level my crafting profession, the optimal order of skill use changes. I get more proficient at crafting lower-tier items and I acquire new crafting skills. So crafting the optimal macro itself becomes a kind of mini-game. It changes as I progress, and I still must be present to push the button.

    The only difference is that instead of hitting multiple buttons in succession, I hit one which automates the process.

    I don't think people should run unattended macros. That kind of action is botting. But if I'm right here, pressing the button, why not have the ability to chain repetitive tasks?
     
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  3. Umbrae

    Umbrae Avatar

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    I think the goal of good game design is to eliminate the necessity of repetitive tasks so there is no need of macroing.
     
  4. Phredicon

    Phredicon Avatar

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    In my opinion that kind of macroing *is* botting, in that you are not PLAYING the game, you are gaming the system in order to increase your skill. And while you may be "present" to press the button, I consider it the same as unattended botting.

    That's why I hope there is not that type of macroing available to chain tasks together.
     
  5. NirAntae

    NirAntae Avatar

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    To me, it's the long chaining of commands that is the problem. I have no problem with macros to make a complex action into a single button press... for instance, in UO, I used UseLastSkill(set to ctrl+s), UseLastItem(set to ctrl+z) and UseLastItem-LastTarget(set to ctrl+x) constantly. It's when you start adding the "wait 3 seconds, use the next item/skill, wait five seconds, use the next item..." etc. that you start getting into the troublesome range.
     
  6. vjek

    vjek Avatar

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    Unattended and attended automation will happen in SotA, as with any persistent multiplayer online game.

    Some drivers that encourage the behavior are: (among many)
    • real money involved, at all, in any way, no matter how insulated (cash shop)
    • grinding (having to perform an action thousands of times, with minutes or hours in between, to become proficient)
    • scarcity (temporal, geographic, or "luck" based)
    • luck based success for any in-game system (0.00001 percent chance of success at "whatever")
    • popularity. (The more popular a persistent multiplayer game, the higher the demand for cheats, hacks, exploits, and bots.)
    Having said that, there are a few ways to discourage casual automation. I sincerely hope the "rune/deck/card/temporally-random" combat system isn't one of them, because that is a horrific place to try and "fix" a problem that will never be fixed.
    Speaking of fixes, you can try to fix it. But no-one should. For in-game mechanics, you can only permit players to gain 1 or x skill point per minute/hour/day. You can prevent player trading. You can prevent putting items on the ground. You can prevent multiple connections from the same IP address. You can not have /follow or /face. You can not have /loot or /lootall. You can randomly place/move UI widgets to prevent fixed position interfaces.

    And everyone one of those ideas makes the game less fun, and reduces your target audience. They're all more or less really bad ideas. :)

    Unfortunately, RG himself has confirmed that crafting, as a standalone playstyle, will be self-sufficient, financially.
    Now, while it doesn't specify that's going to be profitable, if it is profitable (and not a zero-sum system) the horse is already out of the barn and down the road. It's done. That's how people will make infinite money in the game, especially if crafted finished products sell to NPCs for a profit.

    Similarly, with respect to economic drivers, as long as ANY item sells for ANY amount of in-game currency, unmodified, directly after dropping from a creature, and those creatures respawn over time, the economy is going to have problems. Given that SINGLE mechanic, individuals who live in countries that have a significant real-world economic disparity with the games host country will kill creatures 24x7 and attempt to sell that in-game currency for real-world currency via third party transactions. Been done, likely won't be stopped any time soon.

    For players not interested in that kind of economic gameplay, I think the best we can hope for are attractive in-context resource, item, time, and gold sinks that keep gameplay fun and challenging.

    Personally, I see no need to be able to sell finished products for gold, beyond the recovery of costs. I believe crafting and harvesting should grant you exactly zero gold, but you could break even. If you want value for those crafted or harvested items, sell them to other players, or give them to NPCs for non monetary rewards.

    Also, I see no economic need for creatures in the open world to drop finished products that sell to an NPC directly for gold. They can and should drop a wide variety of items, but all of them have two purposes: use in appearance slots, and to be salvaged for resources. That's it.
    Crafted items from those resources should again, not sell to an NPC for gold, beyond the cost required to craft them, to break even.
    Finally, in my opinion, there should be only one (or very very very very few) source of direct gold in the game. From chests, as a reward for finished scenarios, seems like a good single source. Everything else should be resources that have no value, on their own.
    This topic is a great example of how one thing (automation) is both influenced by and influences a huge range of in-game systems. Let's hope, at the very least, we won't see 1 bot herder with 4 bots on /follow, the first week after SotA launches.
     
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  7. Kilhwch

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    We're just going to have to agree to disagree here.
     
  8. Fain

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    There's a cool game called Progress Quest you can "play" too.

    I used to macro in UO because it was the best way to gain skills. Skill gain was so slow and simple tasks (hide) had to be repeated thousands of times.
     
  9. rendix

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    I feel like macros for combat actions are only neccesary when the UI becomes an obstacle to use. I think this poll needs to be more specific as to what type of macroing. I, for example, would greatly disapprove of people macroing there skills up while they slept (even though it's become the accepted norm amongst most freeshards nowdays).
     
  10. Myth2

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    There isn't a whole lot that can be done about botting. In addition to player reporting and random encounter/event mechanics (which interrupt bots), IP banning would be effective (but harsh). Being able to play in a single player world seems to be an invitation to bot, especially because you can bring your SPO items back to OPO with you (presumably). Either way, I'm sure Portalarium will, at least, be as extreme as is required to curb rampant botting.

    Also, on the topic of attended macroing, whether or not it should be considered botting is irrelevant. All that matters is that you can't bot for weeks strait if you're attending the process. All attended macroing does is allow you to eat, talk, or do other menial tasks while you stare at a screen. The point is that, being present restricts things enough to mitigate heavy botting inflation problems.
     
  11. Kal Morte

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    A lot of recent games have already run into this. Darkfall, which many PvPers thought(wrongly) was the Spiritual successor to UO, put rules into place to mitigate the macroing with various degrees of success. At launch, people were using starter weapons to macro their skill up. They simply made it so you couldn't gain skill with the starter weapons. All other weapons had durability and after so many uses would decay.

    I think they could have taken further measures, but at the end of the day, there is nothing you can do to 100% prevent macroing or botting. The difference in this game is that you can filter people out. You probably won't even see random people who are seriously more powerful than you, so I feel like Portalarium already has a good mechanic in place. Build relationships in the game, and as a crafter your friends are going to buy from you regardless if the other vendor is selling them a few % cheaper.
     
  12. TemplarAssassin

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    Thats one of the main problems that might arise in the future.
    Even if not scripting, finding an optimal route that allows for ultra-fast farming and then doing it in a non-PvP setting would allow such people to gather enormous amounts of resources, while people who play only in Open-PvP environment wouldn't be able to farm as fast because of the risk of getting killed/robbed.

    Now many here would go like "huurrr, why would you farm resursez and dragens in pvp setng, go farm in PvE setting".

    Well, I play game for the immurshuns. Remove the soul of the game from it, what remains? An arcade.
    If I want arcades, I play Battlefield. Now I need a game that will let me immerse myself fully into it's world.

    If the devs fail to provide this level of gameplay I'll just leave.
     
  13. Explorer Hygard Jels

    Explorer Hygard Jels Avatar

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    While I don't think *like* the idea of players using unattended macros, I agree that there's no real way to stop it. It will happen in this type of game for reasons alredy stated an others. I don't have a problem with people macroing commands to make their time in-game more enjoyabe. I am thinking of a scenario where one has been gathering resources and walks up to a crafting station. As soon as they pull up, they are able to hit their macro for whateber they want to craft, and it opens their pack, places items on the table, runs the table, and maybe moves them down the line to the next table. I would use a macro like that without a problem.
     
  14. jondavis

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
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