Discussion in 'Announcements' started by DarkStarr, Nov 12, 2013.
Good question. I wish I had the answer to it.
Allow me to start with the admission that I have been a fan of just about all of Richard's work - Particularly Ultima Online, of course, as I'm sure many here are. I'm also a proud, Day 1 backer of this project and I am very excited to see this game come to fruition. I am also aware of Starr's role in the genesis of UO, and I'm thrilled that he is now on board. Add to that Scott Jennings, and this is my dream team, so I have absolute faith this game will be nothing short of Richard's vision for the Ultimate RPG.
I've also been notably absent from most conversations.. Just watching and reading from afar. I find I don't often contribute much of value to a conversation, so as the saying goes (roughly) "Better to be thought of as an idiot, than open your mouth and remove all doubt". I remember Dermott from the Stratics forums, and he can vouch for the fact that I don't add much.. *Grins*
With that being said, this design made me want to voice my low opinion - I'm a little disappointed in the choice of advancement. I understand I may not see the whole picture (and maybe that's the problem), and it will more than likely still be better than other similar systems, but none the less, I'm concerned.
One of the major points that was emphasized repeatedly throughout the process was that this would not be a combatant-first world. Strong statements were given that lead me to believe that the having pure crafters, tradesmen, and merchants (The Fisherman and the Warrior) gave a sense of immersion to the world that most modern MMO's do not provide, and would be a key element to this title. That decisions would be meaningful, and the choices you make would have impact, but also assure your unique part to play in a truly immersive world.
Now, it's experience points.. Not just experience points, but two sets of them so that you never have to choose between being a warrior or a fisherman. Where's the choice? Where's the immersion now?
"Behold, for I am the greatest swordsman in the all the land, master of combat in heavy armaments, bearing a shield to deflect powerful blows with the greatest of ease... And in my free time, I learned how to plunge the depths of the earth for the choices mineral veins, smelt them to a purity unmatched by lesser mortals, and craft weapons and armor of peerless quality!"
Sorry, that was a bit snarky, but you see my point. How long until the option to respec comes along? Will there be skill restrictions based on sensible pairings, like not being able to master both fire and water, or Life and Death? (I do admit, I am positively THRILLED that the choice was made to seperate magic schools - Magery in UO was too versitile to be ignored.) Are experience points going to scale, so that as you gain more in one it's harder to gain them in the other, until the point it becomes almost impossible to be a master of both combat and trades?
I would have thought the easiest and most interesting approach would have been to take the original skill system in UO, and build on it. Sure, you gain in Swordsmanship while fighting with it, but as you gain a total number of skill points, it would unlock a much smaller pool of specialization skills that would allow you to build up in several skills, but only specialize in a few. Here's an overall example:
700 Total Skill Cap
100 Individual Skill Cap
3 tiers of specalization per skill, which activates passive and active bonuses to that skill.
Tier 1 unlock at 1, tier 2 at 50, tier 3 at 100
10 Specializaiton Points Maximum when you reach 700 Total Skill.
No experience points. No separation of combat and trade. Choices that matter.
Sorry, sorry.. I know.. Armchair developer here. But I can dream right?
Anyway, perhaps in time, as more details are revealed and hammered out, my concern will wane, and my disappointment will be reversed. I just had hoped for something a little different.
Still... After all of this.. Can not WAIT to play this game.
And now.. I should probably close my mouth and hope people forget this... Abberation of mine.
This post makes me tingle. I need some pomegranate.
My Lord you are correct, I watch Moonshiners on a reguular basis, and yes the water, grain, sugar, and yeast mix is fermented and the evaporated and consensed into alchohal via a still. On the same lines corn can be sprouted to form malted corn to make the mash, thereby removing the need to use yeast, in turn this makes a better tasting alchohal and doesn't give you a hangover the next morning.
Don't sell yourself short Coldren, I recognized the name right off, and I don't remember if we agreed all, some or none of the time, but I'm glad to see familiar UO/Stratics people here participating. I've been very happy with the openness of the Portalarium team as well as the lineup itself;
You have to remember that this is first and foremost NOT exactly the same as UO. At its base, SotA is going to be more of a story-driven RPG the way that the stand-alone Ultimas or Dragon Age or whatever non-MMO RPG you want to consider. As a bonus, there is going to the be MMO/UO-like persistent world sandbox.
The choice is in how you spend your time. The scenario you provide really is not all that far out or snarky as mining or even lumberjacking could be a good way for the warrior to keep honing their strength when the opportunity for fighting is at a low (or they simply wish to have a break from it). Some people may play SotA and be 100% combat, some 100% crafting, some a mix, some will play the story, others will ignore it in favor of some aspect of the persistent world.
The thing though is that as of right now we're only going to have a single character. It's not going to be like UO or WoW or whatever where you have multiple characters (a melee, a mage, a crafter, a thief, and a RP barkeep on the same account), so having the ability to do both crafting and combat allows players to be able to enjoy more of the game with that one character.
I already have my own plan in this regard in that I plan on working my way through the storyline first, then "retire" into the life of the traveling gatherer/salesman.
I'm gonna guess that this will be considered and worked in in some way.
Again, only a guess, but I would say that balances will be made to make opposing schools be noticeable. Obviously Sun and Moon schools will have effects that counter each other simply due to the day/night aspect of the two.
I think the feel will end up reasonably close to UO if you consider the skill points in UO the same as Experience Points, however the effects were more basic in UO where a skill tree system allows for a lot more customization. We'll see how it works out.
Good to see you here Coldren, hope to see you ingame when we get it.
*schedules vacations around alpha dates*
Guys Awsome Update The only thing that I am getting hung up on is “The Trainer” Ive always disliked stopping my adventure to go all the way back somewhere that Looks exactly the same as day one.
It’s like getting home from work and the same solicitor comes to your door day after day and is selling the same magazines . Npc Trainers never given me a feeling of fulfillment or accomplishment .
Its also a terrible sight to see.. people running to and fro with a period of Idle Player Character Zombie Sway as they skill up.
Please Let our development be on the fly with no exp treadmill.
If we use a skill, that skill goes up.
Stop using a skill turn it down
turn a new skill up
Old skill forced down .
Please Don’t Stray from profection
Hell of job though !
It doesn't have to be the same trainer, and nothing says that every trainer has to be able to teach you every skill in that discipline. Maybe we might have to search out a special trainer in some really out of the way and difficult to find location for a really rare skill?
I don't think auto-skill up is any real advantage in the long run, and I rather liked the feeling of 'cashing in' after a long days' quest.
Trainers also = every other game..
Sent from my DROID RAZR
It may be just a pet peeve with me personally LoneStranger i just hate towns or spots taken up with people applying skills. Its not a natural scene to me... Or having to leave something im still doing so i can get my new fireball.
Sent from my DROID RAZR
What do you propose? I've seen other games pop up a little icon that tells you that you are ready to apply skill points, and then you click it and you get the tree, no matter where you are in the world. That's one way to do it. Maybe some personal medidation where you sit down for a few minutes with no inturruption in order to learn it?
People sitting around is valid. However, with the new conversation system, it's possible that interacting with a trainer is not just talking to someone, looking at a UI and then clicking an icon. I think it's more natural to have a teacher or master or trainer that you select your new skills from, rather than just instantly learning the skill when out on your own.
As far as leaving your quest or mission to go level, I've never really heard of anyone actually doing that. Downtime in between, or while waiting for someone, sure, but I wouldn't leave an instance to get it.
Yay! YAY! Oh, and did I mention... YAAYYY!!! It all looks so exciting.
This makes me so ridiculously happy. I hate games where it is pointless to be a crafter because you get better stuff as loot as a beginner than even moderately high-level crafters can make. -.- That players will be creating most if not all the loot, meaning master craftsmen make the best stuff in the game, is just so exciting there aren't words. And then to add in the history and maker's marks and so on of 'real' player-made weapons AS the loot...
<3 <3 <3
Very kind of you to say. We disagreed more often than not, but I always respected the way you tried to frame arguments and refrained from becoming to emotional or knee-jerk in your posts. Maplestone was also very enjoyable to converse with, again, even when on opposite sides of an issue.
Agreed and understood. My concern may seem like it is more orriented towards the persistent world side of things, but it's actually geared towards both. It's obvious to see my concern on the multiplayer side of things, but if you think about it, why wouldn't it apply to the single player/story side of things in a fashion similiar to the online perspective?
Online, I may only be a smith, so my combat will be minimal, and I would need help and protection going for difficult, rarer resources that are harder to reach. It would behoove me to make friends, or find other ways to acquire them. Maybe I can kill a few things if I am crafty, patient, or just plain lucky.. But I'm never going to get that rare ore the dragon is guarding without a little help.
On the single player side, why not the same? I want my avatar in the single player side to be a smith, but if I want to progress in the story, I'll have to make virtual friends by performing tasks relative to the role I want to play in my individual world. I need a warrior NPC to help fight off the badies, but how do I get him to aid me? Maybe I can make items, sell them and hire him as a mercenary. Or maybe I can talk to him and find out he likes swords, so I make him a special sword, buy him a pint, and earn his friendship. Or I can find out more about him from the bartender, found out he lost his daughter, and that his daughter had a favorite pin, so I find the recipie to craft one just like it, and we bond. In a way, pretty much what you do with online players.
It's really all about implementation.
A sensible statment that was true in UO to a degree - raising skills in secondary skills so that your stats would raise, thus improving the primary skills you wanted to focus on. However, the best combatants in UO took all the skills they could that focused around combat, and all the best crafters (or "mules") focused entirely around trades and gathering. The ability to litterally be the best of both at one time really wasn't there before soulstones.
From what I believe is currently known, I think the choice is more akin to "Do I want to master combat or trades FIRST" because in time, I can theoretically be both. Realistically, I'm sure neither of us will - Careers and families are quite time consuming. But we all know, there will be those who will. Come to think of it, I think even in UO I never mastered both. Best I had was a really good smith.
Again, you make a good point. I do understand that this is a game first, and it should absolutely be enjoyable, and I could see where the limitation of one character would be a sour note for some people.
My selfish side says that this lack of a hard choice breaks immersion. My concept that I find enjoyable may simply be too harsh to be practical. For me, immersion says no - You SHOULDN'T be able to be a legendary combatant AND exquisite craftsman, it's just not "realistic" to be. BUT, that is simply not true for everyone, and this is a game, not reality. And besides, nothing stops me from simply choosing not to raise my combat skills if I don't PERSONALLY feel I should be able to. That's my choice, and it shouldn't be forced on others.
Also true. I think I just need to wait and see when they have more details.
Absolutely it could.. By my own admission, I simply don't know how all the pieces will fit. It could end up being fantastic - One deviation shy of my hopes and dreams. But I don't know. So for now.. I'm just concerned. That will likely change.
And likewise to you, good sir. A good conversation, as always.
[Edit 1001... Day 1 without spellcheck.. The outlook is bleak..]
So there is not a cap like UO on how many skill points you can obtain and spent?
I apologize if this is answered and I missed it.
Personally, I would love to see it be such that we can learn a skill from a trainer, OR another PC who already has the skill. Could even give a little XP bonus/incentive to the person doing the teaching (either like a straight 10xp, or more like 10% extra xp gain for an hour afterwards), thus making it 'profitable' to be a teacher/Master
The primary issue that permits what you've described, and what RG described, is that NPC's will buy loot, without any compensating consumption mechanic, and provide gold to players, directly.
This one simple thing is what has destroyed almost every persistent multiplayer online game economy. Everyone thinks it's great to have piles and piles of gold, and then everyone is angry because gold has no value. There are better ways.
A glib way of putting the problem: If you have an infinite number of gold taps, don't be surprised when the sinks overflow.
I hope they put some kind of cap on it.
But it looks like someone that only wants to craft will receive only half the skills they could get.
So it looks like it may force players to advance in skills they may not care much about.
Maybe they need bonuses that could help the opposite side.
Like in UO, I think lumberjacking gave some kind of plus to the mace fighting skills.
So have some crafting skills that give bonuses to fighting skills and vice versa.
It's hardly an issue that can be well discussed until we know more about the gold sinks. Tax on tarding, upkeep for housing, repairing of equipment or gold lost on death. It's beyond my ability to imagine that the devs on board for SOTA are not aware of the need for Gold to flow into and out of an economy at a controlled and strategic manner.
Seems like it's just alarmist to assume the economy is broken based on isolated information that clearly doesn;t represent the economic environment 100%
This is another interesting point that got my gears spinning, considering things I hadn't before..
Who better to craft the best sword than one who knows how to swing it?
Who better to forge the best armor than one who has been hit while wearing it?
Who better to shape the shield than one who knows how to manuever it?
Who knows where to strike a foe better than one who knows the weak points in his armor?
Who knows how to shatter an enemy blade than one who knows the thinnest point is?
Very, very good point. You and Dermott helped me think of this differently so thank you to you both.
This could be very interesting if done properly. Good at swinging a sword? When you smith one, it will be better. You'll know how you want the material to be made, and where it can be found.
The synergy between the seperate branches could be very interesting indeed.
I so much hope there will be hard caps on skill points. Otherwise it will be an evil grind to stay competitive in certain fields...
Separate names with a comma.