Marking runes and travel?

And as I brought up in the previous discussion, I am sure, I should be no more be concerned if you go to town and switch to SPO/FPO/OPO PvE than I should be concerned if you decide to log out and play WoW. It is not the same game. I won't see you in either case, so why should I care what you choose to do with your time? If I see you in open PvP, then you may or may not be a factor. Otherwise, you should be free to do as you please.

 

Very true!

 

I missed that this was in response to me.

If your primary goal is exploration, perhaps open PvP is not the mode that will best permit you to achieve that goal.

The element of surprise is fine, but it is exactly because I think that players should administer their own justice that I think that permitting criminals to have an escape mechanism like Recall prevents being able to bring criminals to justice. Surprise can work both ways.

I have no problem with recall in PvE. But I do propose that Recall/Gate be inhibited if you are flagged for open PvP or if you are a participant in a guild war.

 

Speak for yourself. You're all about carrying on your Anti PK legacy on a new game, complete with sink or swim mannerisms that spawned from UO. This is ironic, considering you can't cope with people recalling after they've killed you, or if they want to escape a beat down at the hands of your posse. There are ways to prevent it. I'm sorry you had a hard time managing it on UO.


Anyway, we're talking about a single element here: recall/gate. It's already been stated that the game will have the spells, so suck it up and stop whining that someone will maybe be able to kill you and blip away, or disappear right in front of your band of vigilantes. Adapt to this problem and find a way to stop it.

If there were no way to recall/gate, the diehard PVP/PK lunatics would just find a different way to tick you off, anyway. You act as if one mechanic was all they had to cause people a lot of frustration. Anyone who's played UO for more than an hour knows this is false.


You're negligent to the fact that a majority of the people playing this game are not even planning on PVP. What you're suggesting is that a common place Ultima-esque mechanic be removed to cater to Open PVP shenanigans. That's complete nonsense.

It's also under the assumption that there is going to be an Open PVP mode that is very UO esque. I doubt that is even the case, so I honestly don't see what the point of discussing it is.

No, I'm not. Being pro-recall/gate makes me want to make SotA more like Ultima in general. You had ways to gate and recall in the single player games. I'm fairly certain the actual developers for the game are aware of this, considering the fact that the spell is going to exist.

Open PVP/PKers are in the minority. Any game that caters specifically to their feelings is destined to face plant.

Because anyone who doesn't enjoy the game the way Owain plays it doesn't deserve to be playing it. Or something.

 

I understand your frustrations Arkhan, but I find your post unnecessarily provocative. Owain, have you read Rild's other suggestions (see quote)? He asked for an opinion on them, but you only noted that he might not belong in the PvP slider. To be thorough, in your original reply to that post, you mentioned that recall is what allowed PvP to get out of hand, however you didn't address any of Rild's suggestions, which may offer ways to minimize this issue. He seems to think that a strong reduction in supply could solve these problems. What do you think?

Also, @Owain (and anyone else interested), I mostly agree regarding recall's effect on PKs, and I'd like to ask what, specifically, you find causes this link? Is it the ability to get away from justice, or to get close to prey, which you believe led to recall enabling PKs to run rampant?

 

You perceptively noticed that I mentioned that regarding those other suggetions, I noted that flagging for PvP might not be his best choice.

I purposefully didn't address his suggestions, because all his suggestions related limiting PvPers, while still permitting him to be able to still indulge himself in exploring while in a high threat environment. I think it is fine that he wants to explore, but is a high threat environment really the best place to do that? A person may have an interest in tropical fish, but collecting specimens in a African country that is embroiled in a civil war where factions are known to take foreigners hostage might not be wise.

For example, "If your recall is tethered to your "rent" location". This does nothing to prevent a PK from using Recall to escape player justice.

"Make it so the ritual to move your recall tether only works during certain astronomical alignments." Same complaint. The location to where you recall is not the issue, but rather the recall itself.

"Make "recall", "portal", and "summon" high level spells." This only defers the problem, it doesn't correct it.

"Make certain areas (especially in dungeons) anti-recall, or gate-proof." Doesn't address problems out in the general wilderness, so the problem remains.

I am not against Recall or Gate for PvE, only for PvP. So if Rild wants to recall to aid in his pursuit of exploration, that would be best done in PvE. If he wants to PvP, then flag for PvP, not exploration.

 

It's odd that in most other situations, you tell people they need to adapt or slide away from pvp.. But when it is your problem, you want something scrapped from the game completely.

 

I am trying to prevent a problem that was prevalent in UO PvP. People always complain about how PvP in UO was 'broken'. Well, Recall/Gate was a factor in making UO PvP broken. It facilitated the whole ganking style of play that people complain about so bitterly.

If Recall/Gate are inhibited in open PvP and guild wars, that will serve to limit what people perceive as 'ganking'. For example, a PK comes in, whacks you when you are low on health fighting a mob, then recalls out before anyone in your party can lift a finger. PKs would still be able to kill you, but they would have to escape pursuit after having done so.

 

I would just like to hear if there are other non-PVP concerns about recall/gate. I know some have been brought up in the Travel Options thread. Should have a thread in the PVP section about this issue? You might be right that they need to be handled separately. I'm not dismissing your concerns Owain, I just think the thread has got a little buried under this one aspect of the topic. Maybe there are some innovative ideas about new recall/gate spells, and I'd like to hear the opinions of as many people as possible.

 

If the topic has become PvP centric, that might mean that PvE concerns have already been addressed and no one has any further issues in that regard. We are on page 7, after all. Page back, and see what was said previously.

 

Personally, it seems inherent that a non-pvp slider would allow recall, and that a pvp-slider wouldn't. Obvious reasons exist for restricting it in PvP, but does anyone believe that recall shouldn't be in the non-pvp slider?

 

I just don't see the point in taking out a huge part of the game for something so simple in the big picture.

 

There are gank squads in any MMO with PVP.... you realize that removing the means to teleport doesn't solve anything, right? You'd have to correct human nature, not recall spells.

So, a viable means of escape for a wizard needs to be removed because you don't like what it might entale for you and your band of friends online.
If that's how you feel, maybe YOU shouldn't be flagged for open PVP.


What if you're going out a-gankin' and find someone you deem unworthy to be alive anymore. 5 to 1, your team's favor.

You're saying it's lame that they can go "oh crap" and teleport to escape a one sided fight?

 

What do gank squads have to do with Recall as it relates to PvP? There will be gank squads either way, but without Recall, that gank squad has to stand and fight it out if they encounter another force, and not just recall out.

The viable means of escape is removed for all magic users, which is equitable. Recall was also used by blue players in UO, but no one complains about the depredations of blue players, but one only has to look at any PvP thread to read about all the people who were traumatized by UO PKs, so if eliminating Recall in SotA open PvP avoids the problems experienced in UO, then down the road hopefully people won't complain bitterly about SotA PKs, or at least not AS bitterly.

My suggestion inconveniences all mages equally, but I am not one to impose a penalty upon only one one style of play. I have frequently said that if someone wants to have the game 'punish' criminals, they should be prepared to have the same game feature applied to themselves. This is exactly what I propose.

If you are tottering about in the wild all by yourself, an inherently dangerous place, you are being unwise. A one sided fight in combat is a highly desirable turn of events, and something that a player should actively seek when the odds are in their favor. The best way to avoid finding yourself in a one sided fight is 'do not wander about by yourself in a combat zone'. If you insist on going out solo, then unflag yourself from open PvP.

Yes, good folks might be saying "oh crap", but bad folks will be saying "oh crap" as well, and as Chris Spears likes to say, "Everything involves trade offs". Everyone will have to decide for themselves if that trade off is worth it for them. I have expressed my opinion, and you have expressed yours. Hopefully the devs will be able to measure the overall consensus on the topic, and act accordingly.

 

You're the one that said it helped facilitate gank squads.

That's because the monsters in UO don't have forum accounts and can't go complain on Stratics about how all the blues keep teleporting away all the time.

People are going to complain regardless. People complain about everything. No one is happy. If you think recall PKing was the sole cause for PK bitterness, I question if you actually played UO. There were far more irritating things to deal with.

Also, remember, in UO, if you are ACTIVELY IN COMBAT, you can't teleport away. The game doesn't let you. So if a wizard was fast enough to blip in, kill your friend, and teleport away before you manage to attack him in some way, my suggestion is similar to your usual suggestion: Adapt. Get better at PVP. Pay better attention. Why penalize people who are better at an aspect of the game than you?

If there is an appropriate combat-cooldown before you can teleport away, that's more than fair. If you aren't able to keep someone actively engaged that long, you've met your match. It happens. Someone's always better than you at stuff. Don't cry and complain that it's unfair. Go get better at what it is you do.

Hosing everyone from onegroup equally doesn't make it fair. It's discrimination. What if riding on horseback is a skill, and mages aren't very good at it, but the warrior types that they're now forced to "stand and fight" are great at it? Good luck running. What you suggest penalizes wizards and does nothing to melee characters except give them easy targets. Mages aren't known for their physical abilities, which includes running around in the woods trying to avoid guys clanging around in armor who are used to jogging.

Yeah! Punish the innocent! Gotta be fair.

If you insist on complaining that zippy little wizards blow your friend's face off and teleport away, unflag yourself from open PVP.

Also, common sense dude, you're always going to find yourself in a one sided fight sooner or later. You even said that it's something people should actively seek out if the odds are in their favor.

Those are often referred to as gank squads. So, who's side are you actually on here?

Suggesting that a means of escape be taken away is absurd.

It's not really a trade if you have something taken away and don't get anything in return.

 

And so it does, so from your point of view, why would you want to help facilitate gank squads? My point was that there will be gank squads regardless, but we don't need to facilitate them, do we? I have more to say with respect to ganks squads below.

People complained about PKs in general. If we do away with a feature that facilitates PKs, they will have slightly less to complain about. As with gank squads, we should be facilitating PKs, should we?

Nonsense. Unless they changed this after I stopped playing (about the time they added ninjas and crap like that), you could cast any spell you wanted. You might get interruped if you were in combat, but there wasn't a game inhibit.

Everyone can in SotA can employ magic, just as in UO. If a player chooses not to learn any magery, that is their choice, so it's not like this restriction would penalize any one class, because there are no classes. In PvE, if Recall is seen as being sufficiently useful, most people will probably get enough magery to be able to cast Recall, just as most players did on UO, so if most players have Recall, this restriction doesn't penalize one group, it penalizes most players.
Edit: just saw this here: https://shroudoftheavatar.com/forum...hroud-of-of-the-avatar.3100/page-5#post-47040

Yeah, probably so.

By the same token, if wizards don't want me sticking them with pointy things, they can unflag themselves from PvP. See how ridiculous that argument is?

Actually, I do not see a gank squad as an invalid tactic. I rarely operate solo, so any solo enemy my group encounters would consider my group to be a gank squad rather than admitting to themselves that they chose to employ particulary poor judgement in running around solo. I employ group tactics because I expect to encounter other groups, but that doesn't mean I will ignore an enemy because that would be more 'fair'.

In general, if you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.

If PKs are rendered less effective, I would think that most players would consider that to be of benefit. As I said, everyone will have to decide for themselves if the benefit of reduced PK effectiveness is worth the additional risk of not having Recall.

 

Well, if we don't want to help facilitate gank squads, we may as well just take out everything in the game that gank squads can use to their advantage to win.

So, let's just get rid of weapons and armor. Potions. Mounts. Everything. The game needs everyone to be completely naked, on foot, fighting bare handed.

I think you meant "shouldn't be facilitating PKs". Removing one feature doesn't remove/nullify the PK, so it accomplishes next to nothing. It's a drop in the bucket. Waste of time. The negative impact outweighs the positive.

If you try leaving, it says "thou art in combat" or something along those lines. It will let you cast it all you want. Doesn't mean it will let you leave. It's like what happens if you run through a moongate while fighting.

Even if it didn't, there's an obvious solution to the problem, which has already been mentioned: If a player is in combat, don't let them leave the immediate area.

Rocket science!

Everyone knows certain archetypes are going to rise to the top of being viable builds. That's how it's always going to work in games.

Yes, it is indeed a ridiculous argument. I'm glad you noticed. I'm not sure why you ever came up with it and used it in the first place.

So you want to inhibit gank squads, but also see them as valid? You make no sense.

So, you don't want to facilitate ganksquads, and you want things to be fair such that people can't just escape from harms way, but if things are fair, the tactics involved suck?

Alrighty. I think I'm probably done discussing this with you because it's like you're just flailing around coming up with anything possible to counter with, regardless of how much sense it actually makes. You contradict yourself. It's a waste of my time.

PKs should be as effective as possible. They deserve the same rights and privileges of everyone else playing the game.

I know you're probably gearing up to be an Anti-PKer for life, but I am sorry to say, they aren't going anywhere. Enjoy your eternal struggle.

 

Before AoS february 2003 (old original UO) you could recall from fights even if you were active yourself in them.

Some freeshards removed that possibility though.

 

@owain just so were clear, you believe that everyone should have to walk (possibly 30 minutes minimum in some situations) just to keep mage PK's from getting away AFTER they have killed you?

Am I missing something?

 

This doesn't address the issue when you are not in combat, but still being pursued.

It is a different case when Rild says, "I can't do what I really want to do, which is exploring, because I'm getting killed in PvP". It is reasonable to suggest then, don't flag for PvP. But if you say, "All that PvP is interfering with what you really want to be doing, which is PvP, so maybe you shouldn't flag for PvP", you've just made a ridiculous argument, have you not?

The problem with a gank squad (otherwise known as a PvP group) is not that there are PvP groups, but rather that there are PvP groups that can easily escape when confronted by another group. If I am in a group, and am confronted by another group, if they attack I have no option but to fight. By the same token, if my group attacks another group, they must fight. It is accountability that I am looking for, not just inhibiting of PvP groups. PvP groups are just fine. PvP groups for which there is no accountability are not fine.

And if recall is inhibited in open PvP, PKs will have exactly the same rights and privileges as everyone else flagged for PvP, so I'm happy that we agree on that.