Meticulous Collection

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Scoffer, Oct 18, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Scoffer

    Scoffer Avatar

    Messages:
    905
    Likes Received:
    2,651
    Trophy Points:
    93
    As Trihugger said, the comparison isn't that it would flatten out as it does now but rather it would be an actual decline in the skill after a certain point.
     
    Ahuaeynjgkxs likes this.
  2. Lazlo

    Lazlo Avatar

    Messages:
    1,497
    Likes Received:
    3,223
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I did not mean that meticulous only gives you more of the base material of a single node. "Base material of a node" is just meant to describe ore, wood, cotton, etc.
     
  3. 2112Starman

    2112Starman Avatar

    Messages:
    3,613
    Likes Received:
    7,989
    Trophy Points:
    165
    I've learned long ago that data doesn't even matter to most people here. I'm skilled at math enough in my own head to know what Im getting and the times I wasted my time and plotted this kind of stuff in a spreadsheet and posted, it just got rejected like anything else even though it proves the point. You give them a 10,000 item template and thats not enough, there is always some argument (thats what its really about).

    I think what you said is spot on, thats the best you can hope for. Dont kill yourself over tying to prove it in this day of age where facts mean nothing.

    I've learned to just post my opinions and not even look back (or read) at the arguments that follow.
     
  4. hammadowna

    hammadowna Avatar

    Messages:
    634
    Likes Received:
    678
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    Maybe they just need to remove more nodes to make the skill useful? ;)
     
    High Baron O`Sullivan likes this.
  5. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't believe that's happening with meticulous collection per node. Looking at it over time is not really something that makes a lot of sense.

    Let me ask you this, since we're all using the same system, what difference does any of this make? The only thing we don't all have the same amount of is TIME, so by increasing production over TIME that only helps people that have the most TIME.
     
  6. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

    Messages:
    3,054
    Likes Received:
    11,752
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Female
    But that's what it does.

    If you're mining a copper node, and you meticulous, you will get 1 more copper per swing time.
    You wont get more tin/granite/tungsten no matter how high your meticulous goes.

    If you're harvesting a cottonbush, you will get 1 more cotton per go, you wont get additional cutworms/beetles.

    If you're skinning an animal, you will get 1 more animal hide, you wont get more suet or heads/carcasses.

    Because of the value of the different materials, in scenarios of skinning/cottonpicking, the meticulous is almost always a waste of time, 1 extra animal hide or 1 extra cotton are worth pennies when you could simply move on and head to another node which for the same "swing time" would yield you higher value resources.

    With ore its a bit tricker, as 1 more copper ore have higher value, so it takes longer to reach the point where meticulous becomes "not worth doing." But it can still be reached. I always abort meticulous on skinning/cottonpicking. I'll let it do its thing on ore, especially if its doing it at critical speed - but I have found boosting its chances to proc on ore reduces my ore yield per hour and my exp per hour. Despite all the variances - my level of attention, the amount of fighting I'm doing, etc. If I put that potion on, I walk out with less ore.

    I'd say maybe its just me and my playstyle, but plenty of others report the same. This is why we suggest the skill could use a tweak. If the devs think its fine, then fine.
     
  7. Jezebel Caerndow

    Jezebel Caerndow Avatar

    Messages:
    3,118
    Likes Received:
    7,912
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Ya we have not had enough players leave yet, lets get all the gatherers to leave now too.
     
    kaeshiva and Trihugger like this.
  8. Trihugger

    Trihugger Avatar

    Messages:
    718
    Likes Received:
    1,236
    Trophy Points:
    93
    And what we're arguing is that this is only actually truly useful if scarcity is a thing (and it is with mining, you do need some amount of meticulous collecting to not be waiting on ore respawns, but that number is very very low).

    You will have more 'value' whether that's measured in pure yield like gold/silver or in additives like tin/suede/bark/beetles etc. if, all things created equal, you are able to constantly move from node to node killing as required.

    With mining in particular, since lets all be honest we do that WAY more than almost any of the other things for gold/silver alone, your net yield is higher selectively using meticulous collection (basically knowing exactly how long before your first hit node respawns and using this as filler) than it would be if you always used meticulous collection over the same extended time period.
    This is like saying you only look at damage but not DPS.
     
    Mac2 likes this.
  9. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm not in favor of limitless damage or limitless DPS. At some point things have to flatten out.
     
  10. Trihugger

    Trihugger Avatar

    Messages:
    718
    Likes Received:
    1,236
    Trophy Points:
    93
    That is irrelevant. You're cherry picking when you want to use time as a viable metric for comparison is the point. Hence you're only looking at damage and not DPS.
     
    Mac2 likes this.
  11. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    I understand your point. What you have to realize is that Scoffer used the BOW for comparison, not me. The bow has a time component (DPS) that is certainly relevant to a conversation about combat. It's an Apple, and the meticulous collection skill is an Orange. Yes, they're both skills (fruits) but they work very differently and so the comparison is not going to be exact. I tried to accommodate this comparison, but I was immediately told that I needed to use TIME as a form of measurement and that's just not the case when we're talking about meticulous collection which works on a per node basis.
     
  12. Trihugger

    Trihugger Avatar

    Messages:
    718
    Likes Received:
    1,236
    Trophy Points:
    93
    What you have to realize is that gathering isn't about a single node. I can't craft anything with what I get from a single node. Much like a weapon, there's a time component of gathering the requisite amount of materials. This skill is SUPPOSED to decrease that time component when in actuality it eventually leads to an INCREASE in the time because what happens at a single node doesn't matter. It's the cascading effect of what happens repeating a behavior over time and results different effects bring. It is completely analogous to Damage vs DPS in this sense. Yes one attack may do more damage but the DPS is horrendous. Yes I might get more ore from this one node but my yield/hr goes down as a result.
     
  13. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    I disagree that it's supposed to save you time. How does meticulous collection help you fight ghosts faster in the mines?
     
  14. Jezebel Caerndow

    Jezebel Caerndow Avatar

    Messages:
    3,118
    Likes Received:
    7,912
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Actually, the OP makes it very clear about time being part of the equation.
     
    Trihugger likes this.
  15. Jezebel Caerndow

    Jezebel Caerndow Avatar

    Messages:
    3,118
    Likes Received:
    7,912
    Trophy Points:
    153
    WOW, not even going to respond anymore, waste of time.
     
  16. Trihugger

    Trihugger Avatar

    Messages:
    718
    Likes Received:
    1,236
    Trophy Points:
    93
     
    kaeshiva likes this.
  17. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    I totally understand the OP's point of view. It's very clear. I'm just saying that meticulous collection is not a "time saver". In fact, the OP isn't really looking to save time, it's asking why meticulous collection doesn't produce more over time, which is a very different goal.

    Obviously meticulous collection doesn't save time, it only increases your odds of getting a meticulous collection on a single node.
     
  18. Lazlo

    Lazlo Avatar

    Messages:
    1,497
    Likes Received:
    3,223
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Nodes don't really have to be very scarce for meticulous to raise collection rates though. This is very clear if mobs are removed from the equation. In this case, how high does the average time between nodes need to be before it's no longer possible to mine 650 gold ore per hour? It's not that big of a number.

    I get that first swings are much more valuable than meticulous collections, but that doesn't mean anything unless you actually compare the different rates and values. If meticulous was always a critical, you would of course always want it. So if it's not fast enough for you now for you to consider it beneficial, how fast would it need to be, and why?

    If a dev offered you a 100% meticulous bonus that you could never turn off, would you take it? Of course, and you would instantly dominate all other miners. That wouldn't be true if it were detrimental.
     
  19. Scoffer

    Scoffer Avatar

    Messages:
    905
    Likes Received:
    2,651
    Trophy Points:
    93
    the bow comparison with the meticulous is actually closer than you think.

    To carry on with that same analogy:
    Assume your bow skill is at 50 and you do 100 damage in a single shot and it takes you 1 second to fire. Your DPS is 100
    now after leveling your bow skill to 100 you find you do 150 damage in a single shot but it takes you 2 second to fire. your DPS is now 75.

    The stance you are putting on meticulous Baron is the same. Just shoot it once and you do more damage! which while true, it effects you long term because the DPS is actually less.

    Back over to mining:
    Mine one ore and you get more with meticulous! which while true, it effects you long term because the OPH is actually less (ores per hour).

    You see?

    Bows were not designed to fire once and that's all, its about over time how effective they are are killing things. Same with mining, you can't just look at one node mined because that's not how mining works due to the sheer quantity of ores needed in crafting.
     
    Ahuaeynjgkxs and Mac2 like this.
  20. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    The problem I see with your analogy is this...

    DPS is required to kill things. Once you kill it, it's dead. There's no longer a need for DPS until you move to the next mob (node). In mining it doesn't work that way at all. Once you move to the next node you have the exact same statistical chance (no decline at all) of being successful. This is why time doesn't matter. There's no carry over between nodes. Not for chance of success or time.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.