Minting Coins

Maybe it's because someone is keeps debating those arguments that tends to provoke a response. When someone says "you're wrong" and puts forth their explanation.. it usually provokes a response in kind. If you just say.. ok I disagree but let's leave it at that.. those responses tend to die down.

There are so many posts saying it won't because there are so many posts saying it will.

 

The original 13 US Colonies had their own currency. Some of the major towns like Amherst that had their own Paper Currency up until the early 1900's
those were called "Bank Notes" (the same as a minted coin, only without the intrinsic value of its material)

these were issued by established banks and are the same thing we use in the US today. Only in the 1920's a group of criminals illegally passed a law that made all the notes come from one central bank, the federal reserve.

 

Trust me.. whenever they announce something I think is a particularly bad idea.. I do say so.

What no dev has ever said.. is that player minted coin would be worth anything other than a standard coin. You're assuming it will within the player economy but you're neglecting the mechanics of the NPC economy and use of NPC vendors into account.

 

Ok, well I think it's good for the developers to see this conversation. It might at least let them know that people inherently don't understand, are worried about, and really need some hand holding through this conversation if they introduce it into the conscious thought of the average gamer.

I hope it doesn't scare them off from implementing player minted coins. It's really a great idea.

 

I don't think they will ever say that it will or will not be worth more...I think they'll say it's up to the players (in the player made economy, they have said they are making).

 

You don't need custom currency for a player made economy. Personally I think you're reading too much into all this.

 

No, you don't need minted coins for a player made economy. Player made coins are just more tools to let players have the freedom to advance the economy beyond standardized gold.

This was a quote from last year. Seems clear to me. But maybe I'm reading too much into it. We'll see.

 

What you're reading into it is the how that coinage will be used.. as well as the volume of coinage players will be able to produce. There's no implication that it's intended to be used to create competing currencies. Indeed if the value of said coinage is standardized that I would say the intention is that they won't compete with standard coin.

 

Yep. Could be.

Seems like a pointless mechanic if players can't put their own stamp on coins though. I mean, what's the purpose of minting your own coins if you can't use them in some kind of meaningful way? Do you think players are just going to mint coins, just because? Do you think we'll be able to put our makers mark on all items BUT coins? Do you think it's likely that RG just thought it would be cool? Or do you think it's more likely that there's a macro economic reason why they're doing this?

 

Time will tell i guess (hoping for the latter)

 

No our coins will have maker's marks. They've made that much clear.. and I've posted several examples of how they could be used earlier.

Mostly I think Richard thinks it's cool. He wants to claim that everything is craftable.. which should include coin. Where we're disagreeing is the viability for that coin to become meaningful currency.

 

Just to drag him back in for the lolz....

Equivalent to Paxlair trying to force their coin to appreciate. If the second equation holds true then I could buy 2 loaves of bread with 2 Paxlair Coins, instead of just one.

If I held a bunch of Paxlair coins (bought at a rate of 2 GC for 2 PLC) and then it was decided that bread would sell for 1 PLC instead of 2 I'd go buy a bunch of bread inside Paxlair, then sell it elsewhere for real gold at the rate of 2 Gold Coins. Ignoring exchange fees I'd double my money. If I wanted to do more competitive I could sell for less than 2 GC, but more than 1 GC, and still make profit. Depending how long this lasted for I could (in theory) effect the bread market. At some point we'd expect the situation to normalise and for the arbitrage to disappear.

Clearly, if Paxlair forces their currency to appreciate and I didn't already own any PLCs then I'd not be able to do this.

 

That's exactly the kind of scenario that the devs (I think it was Chris at the time) said was too exploitable and why the prices of goods would be global rather than regional.

 

For NPCs vendors yes, but players would be able to set their own prices on their vendors. At least I presume so.

 

I'm cautiously optimistic on minting coins. It could be disastrous for many points already raised but I'd hope we can test this in the pre-alphas on a large scale before the game is launched. This idea will definitely require testing and to provide feedback.

If such an system exists then I intend to take part in a variety roles. I'd plan to purchase a minting machine for my towns and I'd make an effort to figure out how to exchange coins from one town to another.

I've discussed paper money in several threads and already considering how to make it possible. If the devs can provide mechanics then it will save a lot of headache.

 

Seriously....just because its you.

In reality player made coin will do nothing. As much as people want their own currencies to have some complicated mechanism surrounding it; the truth is, it wont. It will be worth exactly the same as standard coin except it will have a name on it (might have a collector value at some point).

Players/PoTs/Guilds will not have monopolies, they wont be able to restrict movement of trade......they can only support their own currency by RPing it.......but in truth it is no different than having two different vendors selling the same item at slightly different prices with the future price fluctuations that competition brings.

 

Folks may find it strange to here me say at this point but I do think player minted coins will eventually have a higher value than standard.. but not because they're backed by a town or guild.. rather because they'll become collectors items. I'm sure the industrious player will be able to barter / trade with custom coinage.. I just don't see it happening with NPCs.

Imagine for example that a large, powerful guild minted it's own coin for awhile.. then one day.. one thing leads to another and the guild disbands. The value own those coins are now going to increase as they become increasingly more rare. It won't mean anything to vendors but on the rare market the fewer there are the more valuable they are. Particularly if the guild was well known.

This is another issue I have with trying to turn custom coin into a competing currency. The longevity of that guild or town.. is not guaranteed. Real life still happens. If a key person leaves there's no guarantee the right person will fill the void and in many cases all it takes is the right person leaving for any reason for a volunteer organization to come crashing down. Most guilds just don't last that long.

 

Winfred stated that the number of PL coins to be minted will be Limited. Winfred obviously understands the macro-economics of currency exchange. By controlling the Supply, (AKA the total number of units available to the market place) he understands that if the value starts at the cost of production, it can only go up from there.
So if he sells half of the supply at cost and keeps the other half safely secured for a while, his wealth will grow as the value of those units will rise.

now even if the mechanics arent built into the game to use them with vendors or NPCs, what is to stop people from buying and selling these coins for generic GP to later use for purchasing bread?

Even as a novelty, the coins will have value, or as we say in Economics, exchange rate. To determine this rate will require another currency or quantified commodity. Now, I have heard DS and LB mention in hangouts and in the 2015 Q1 plan that NPC vendors will globally react to supply and demand of goods bought and sold through them.

So, the first person to sell a PLC to a vendor will likely get 1 or 2 GP for them because the algorithm has yet to see what it will do. let's say every time someone sells an amount of PLC to said NPC, they are bought in full by another player in a short amount of time. This signals all of the NPC vendors on the globe to raise the price of PLC. Just like reg vendors in UO when they sell out, they restock double but raise the price per unit.

So what the mean price that all NPC vendors are selling PLCs for is the the exchange rate from GP to PLC.

If the player economy values them higher than the exchange rate, then you will not see them on the NPC markets.

If the player economy values them lower than the exchange rate, they will rot in NPC inventory.

either way, the NPC value algorithms will adjust the price to match supply and demand.

 

um.. major disagreement here.. obviously.. is that 'selling' PLC no an NPC will only ever yield a 1 to 1 result.

 

I'm not sure NPC's should buy player currency. I think that would solve that problem just fine.