New Britannia Heraldry

Discussion in 'The College of Arms' started by Bowen Bloodgood, Oct 9, 2013.

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  1. NirAntae

    NirAntae Avatar

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    Yep. What we usually think of as a 'scale' pattern - the overlapping, heater shaped scales, that I think would be great for a dragon scale 'fur' - is actually fish scales. There are exceptions, but most snakes' scales do not overlap... they feel the same if you rub your hand up or down their body.


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Bowen Bloodgood

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    So maybe a diamond pattern for the serpent and overlapping for the dragon?
     
  3. NirAntae

    NirAntae Avatar

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    While the diamond pattern is more physically accurate, I think the elongated hexagons is more evocative of serpent scales to the average person. You said yourself it reminded you of a serpent pattern in U9. ;)
     
  4. Bowen Bloodgood

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    yes but I haven't looked at that texture in ages. lol But hey.. I'm just the facilitator here. ;) If people like the hex pattern better who am I to argue?
     
  5. NirAntae

    NirAntae Avatar

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    Well, I personally do, but I don't know if I count as "people" in this sense... lol
     
  6. Bowen Bloodgood

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    [​IMG]

    This is the actual U9 texture and actually pretty close to how I envisioned the 'fur'.. the silver part that is.. The hex pattern could work with this I think.. and yes you count as 'people' :) Or at least as 'a person' which is close enough for me. :)
     
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  7. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    I like the hex pattern as its easily recognizable.

    As far as furs, it might be better to divide them into furs and skins. Since this is a fantasy world, there are probably some animal (and other) pelts that would be very prestigious. In fact, a "leather" shield may not be a poor man's defense here, but something to envy. Here are some possible inclusions:
    • Unicorn Mane (white with narrow slashes)
    • Griffon (yellow, split with feathers at the top and some hatchwork for "lion fur" below)
    • Daemon Skin (red, small scales or triangles)
    • Phoenix Feathers (red or blue feathers)
    • Drakes (smaller scales, or perhaps the diamond shapes)
    • Nightmare Hide (black with red hatchwork for "horse hide")
    • Troll Skin
    • Mongbat Fur
    Unfortunately, a lot of these will be expanded once we have a larger bestiary to pull from. Ultima's bestiary is a good starting point, but many things will need to be avoided due to the IP (probably Gwani and Gazers are on that list, unfortunately).
     
  8. Ronan

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    Just a thought...are we tending to get carried away? Additional tinctures are fine, but remember viewing from a distance across a battle field and being able to recognize the difference is the purpose of arms. IMO it will be hard to distinguish some of these.
     
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  9. Gabriel Nightshadow

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    Good point, Ronan. While I find the idea of dragon scales on my shield appealing, I question how visible they would be at 128 x 128 pixels.
     
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  10. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Not everything is going to be clearly recognizable at 1000 paces but look at it perhaps in the way that Stephen would. Take your crest and zoom out as far as you can.. does it have good contrast or does it all just kind of blur together?

    If resolution at 128x128 is a problem up close just rescale the fur. Take a look at the texture I posted.. that's 128x128. Can see the scales just fine. At a distance you won't really see the fine detail of the fur anyway but you'll see how it contrasts.

    As far as getting carried away.. my only worry is how obscure a skin/fur would be. What meaning would it carry? etc.
     
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  11. Bowen Bloodgood

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    [​IMG]
    A sampling of the 'fur' ideas so far.. with some obviously missing. Of course this is just a rough approximation. Dragon, Silver Serpent, Griffon, Drake, Phoenix, Leopard, Mongbat, Unicorn.

    If you look closely you'll see the serpent is a hex pattern while the others all overlap. The phoenix feather pattern as I have them are more oval shaped while the scales on the others come to a point with the exception of the griffon which I originally based off the dragon scales.. but again this is just a sampling for visual aid.

    I thought having a visual might help the discussion. I did have a hard time with the concept of hatch work in these. It just seemed.. too busy... or I'm just not on the same page with that idea visually. I'd have to see an example.

    The unicorn pattern idea of slashes didn't really seem right for some reason so I used a horn shape to make the pattern.

    As far as Daemon skin for a fur.. I'm just not there.. also nightmares and trolls. I have a hard time visualizing these and why. I'm also having a hard time with bear and wolf furs. Granted it doesn't have to be an accurate representation. Quite frankly there's nothing about the ermine fur that reminds me of ermines either.
     
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  12. NirAntae

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    Lovely work!

    However, I think we've hit the point of "scope creep". I think the dragon and serpent scales were a fabulous idea! But I think the rest is probably 'too much'.
     
  13. Bowen Bloodgood

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    I can definitely see that here but I always want to give some opportunity for every idea to be discussed.

    I am rather fond of the Phoenix idea as well.. and the leopard, bear, wolf as they were used by fighters in SI but they're also weren't used quite the same way as heraldry and are kind of a tough representation. They were used as cloaks and tattoos which is perhaps another interesting discussion. Oh dear that gave me an idea. lol (but for elsewhere).

    Incidentally I'm more than happy to take direction from the College if they want to discuss anything of this.. I haven't heard from the others or seen them in here for some time.

    If I had to only pick 3 or 3.. it'd be the Dragon, Serpent and Phoenix. Which in their own way could also carry the ideas of strength, intelligence and dexterity.. oooh.. let me see if I can't justify that concept..

    Dragon is strength and courage.. not really a stretch. Phoenix would take on dex.. being a bird it would be very maneuverable.. agile in flight. As an aspect of love.. love always endures.. never really dies.. always returns.. The serpent is cunning and intelligent.. although it's connection to truth may be dubious.. but in the context of Ultima lore the silver serpent aka the Order Serpent includes logic, order.. which would rely on truth. It may be a bit of a stretch but it could work. In that vein perhaps the phoenix fur should be yellow or gold? rather than red or blue?
     
  14. NirAntae

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    We did address it briefly in the chat, which mostly amounted to what I just said ;) Cool ideas, maybe being taken a little too far.

    I could see those three, though in the case of Phoenix I think what you drew up is a little too similar to the dragon to be differentiated clearly. However, there is an existing but obscure fur called plummette (I think?) which is based on feathers. It's essentially what you drew for the phoenix with a little line and diamond inside it. However, for our purposes, maybe an 'inset' diamond on the pattern you have? something like this:

    v v v
    \/\/\/
    v v
    \/\/


    Could have the 'base' be red with inset gold diamonds, perhaps?
     
  15. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Ah I haven't had the opportunity to view the last couple of chats yet. I just grabbed stuff I found online and made some slight modifications.

    I suppose I COULD try my hand at an actual design? But then I don't see anyone volunteering. heh
     
  16. Bowen Bloodgood

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    [​IMG]

    Ok basically made all new patterns.. cleaned up the dragon scales.. made a new hex pattern for the serpent.. and my suggestion for the phoenix I think is pretty obvious. That is actually a 'natural plumete. There does appear to be stylized versions. Seems the scales may also fall into this type? Colors may be changeable? I've no clue what rules there may be for that.

    I found examples here..

    http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Plumeté_in_heraldry

    This sample is scaled to 128x128
     
  17. Ronan

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    Whew...the plumete looks rather busy, imagine a charge on top of that. As for the serpent and dragon scales hard to distinguish from a distance. Might I suggest using the first pattern for both and reserve the color silver as a special meaning for the silver serpent.
     
  18. Bowen Bloodgood

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    yeah a lot of it is the contrast I think. The design I based that on is in the link I posted.. you'll notice the contrast is a lot lower. I suspect though it might not be as bad as you think. A charge can cover a lot of that.. but of course it really comes down to the design. I don't think the plumete was really meant to have a charge over it but it meant to be used with divisions.

    But if need be we can tone it down.. use grey instead of black for example.. reduce the detailing or scale it larger. If you think the natural is busy.. you should see some of the stylized versions. :)
     
  19. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    The fields signifying furs are very simple. I would have thought a simple pattern of upward pointing arrows on a field would signify feathers; serpent scale could be loose hexes, and dragon scales just V shapes on the field. Colors on the furs/skins should be muted, as they are background details, so maybe a 20% shade (80% if its a dark). I'm not sure we are going overboard; having a good selection is important, and these will probably replace the traditional furs (other than ermine, I couldn't recognize any of them).

    I do agree that the image patterns are busy, but they give an idea of what a constructed shield using those skins would be.

    As far as selecting three:

    Serpent - The image of the silver serpent has always represented Courage, which is why it was the symbol of the Knighthood of Old Britannia.
    Unicorn - The horn of the unicorn was said to force those who touch it to tell the Truth.
    Phoenix - The fires of Love are eternal, as is the immortal bird.

    Dragonscale have been overused, but is a powerful symbol. However, it has ranged from tyrrany (Dragon Highlord armor in Dragonlance) to bravery (Dragonslayer) to benevolence (a scale gifted from a dragon), depending on the story. I wouldn't associate dragons with any specific Virtue.
     
  20. NirAntae

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    I was originally thinking more along the lines of the outer two 'segments' of each of your 'feathers' be red, and the inner three gold. This also works though, I think.
     
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