New Britannia Heraldry

Discussion in 'The College of Arms' started by Bowen Bloodgood, Oct 9, 2013.

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  1. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    I added a lot more and updated the graphic. I probably won't do much more before finalizing it.

    . . .

    But I was thinking... in the Ultima games, in addition to the four cardinal elements, the fifth element was always Ether, and it was associated with blackrock. Is that something we can expect in the game? Is the obsidian eye in some way also going to symbolize the Ether in addition to its other meanings ?
     
  2. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

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    I've been someone curious about blackrock in SotA since the BotA prologue. Blackrock I've thought must have some similarities in appearance with obsidian. One may recall the blackrock generators of Ultima VII and how blackrock was frequently used in strange ways to manipulate magic. Then we have the description of Shard Falls and the seeming chaotic magical effect those have.

    My personal theory is that the Britannian moons could have large concentrations of blackrock and the Shard Falls themselves could also be blackrock. However I don't think blackrock was ever a widely known substance. It wasn't introduced until UVII and only 1 mage ever really did any experiments with it.

    So my question regarding blackrock is was it well known enough at the time of the cataclysm to be widely associated with anything? I think we'll end up calling it anything but blackrock in-game but that's what I think the "obsidian" and Shard Falls in particular is and it seems apparent that this substance has strong ties to chaos magic.

    So perhaps there could be some loose connection with the Obsidian Eye and the ether.. but I think it's more closely related to chaos magic in particular.
     
  3. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    One other thing... the obelisk tip in Pagan is the object of power of the Titan of Ether. The tip of course is pyramidal, like the pyramid shape the eye is on.

    http://ultima.wikia.com/wiki/Obelisk_Tip

    [​IMG]
     
  4. NirAntae

    NirAntae Avatar

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    So, Bowen, if you haven't seen it yet, we tried to address the remainder of your list in the Heraldry chat today.

    We discussed this, and basically determined that we can't determine a whole lot without guidance from Portalarium; we only have purview over the actual heraldry, and even that is limited. In terms of establishing 'official' groups, we can (and doubtless will!) make suggestions, but it's up to Portalarium how to enact it. We did come up with the suggestion that perhaps there should be three knightly orders, based upon the three Principles (Truth, Courage and Love). Any heraldic symbology employed would be heavily dependent on the specifics of the Order in question, so it really isn't possible until we have more of an idea of what we're working with.

    Again, that's more a question for Portalarium, although many of the symbols being employed on devices also tend into either 3's or 8's. Not really much more to say about it, really.

    We touched on this, but mostly what we decided was that it wasn't our place to put 'official' meanings on things. Players are free to use whatever symbols they want for whatever meaning they wish; with the exception of a very few, very specific symbols (eg, the Silver Serpent), the College can't/won't assign 'official meanings' to symbols.

    None of us really cared for the hand symbology to denote magic specifically. We did, however, come up with a symbol we liked based on the magic sigil, eight right triangles in annulo conjoined at base points (a circle made up of eight triangles in a ring; take two squares and overlay them to make an eight-pointed 'star' and color only the outer triangles, not the center of the ring). We referred to is at a Ring of Magic.



    And that finishes out the list you left for us to discuss :) Feel free to send us anything else you'd like us to discuss, either in the Heraldry thread or you can send them to me, since I'm trying to get things a little more organized... pointless as the task may be... lol
     
  5. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

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    I wasn't really asking the College to assign meanings to anything. Those were all just general topics that were never 'finished' here. Most of which as I'm sure you noticed didn't really require the College but a few weeks back Aduin asked for the "list".

    With any luck I'll see the chat Wednesday night. I do appreciate you guys discussing things.

    On the 3s and 8s my main thought was that for those interested in the symbolism that groupings of 3s or 8s would elude to the 3 principles and 8 virtues.
     
  6. NirAntae

    NirAntae Avatar

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    Oh sure :) And we did toss around some ideas on some of the symbology, like the cog being a 'general' crafting sort of symbol. But really on the whole the symbology is all very much personal and up to the individual to interpret as they choose.
     
  7. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

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    Right.. I've just been trying to come up with meanings as a starting point. For those of us geeky enough to use our coa to try to 'tell a story'. It's more or less how I came up with mine. Part story telling part homage to an ancestor.. but then you'd have to look most everything up to figure out what I'm trying to say with it. :)

    But also I think it helps to be able to tie a charge into actual world lore which helps I think.
     
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  8. NirAntae

    NirAntae Avatar

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    Totally agreed. :)
     
  9. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    The prologue seems to suggest that the discovery of the Obsidian Eye was that chaos magic was really the center of magic itself as a whole ; and so chaos magic might try to base itself directly on ethereal force rather than the cardinal elements.

    I just finished reading the book chapters released, didn't get a chance before. It also seems to me its hinted the "Guardians of Midris" are related to The Guardian of earlier Ultimas. But just like there were multiple Avatars, there were multiple Guardians. And this is all connected back to the Obsidian Eye, which resembles the tip of the blackrock obelisk. An eye is also watchful -- like a Guardian.

    The ether is also a void... like the "Obsidian darkness of night," empty and devoid of all physical elements... it encompasses many worlds and dimensions... and its also the way things traverse dimensions... like the shapeshifting and creation of chaos magic.

    I expect we'll also see allusions to Exodus in the game also, on the technology side.
     
  10. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

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    I don't know. I think the Guardian thing is a bit of a stretch There was only ever 1 Guardian and he stemmed from THE Avatar. I'm not seeing the connection. I don't think we have enough information yet to infer quite that much from chaos magic. We'll have to see.
     
  11. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

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    For clarification I've added the following to the OP.

    "Please keep in mind that meanings listed here are not official and also not endorsed by the College of Arms. This is intended as a starting point for those wishing to tell a story with their arms that may tie into SotA lore. "

    I hope to update it with some of the charges on "the list" with comments in the near future.
     
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  12. NirAntae

    NirAntae Avatar

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    Cool. :) It's mostly the difference between offering 'suggestions' to get the creativity flowing, and providing ammunition for 'brow beating'. There need to be certain rules and standards for something like this, but the meanings of symbology isn't one of those areas. ;)
     
  13. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

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    As per chapter 3 of BotA.. the symbol on the cover of the book.. being the 3 curved blades with the 6 colored gems is specifically the symbol of Avatars.

    It wouldn't be surprising to me that someone will eventually want to use that symbol in their arms. That being said the symbol has but a specific meaning of "Avatar". To use it would essentially announce to those who know the symbol that the user is an Avatar. Will be putting it on the list.

    The College may.. or may not want to discuss whether or not it should be a restricted symbol. I suspect the answer to that question would be no.. but I would also suspect that players wouldn't be encouraged to use it.. but they can if that's what they really want. Just my initial thoughts on the symbol itself.

    While the impression from Chapter 3 is that the Avatar symbol is not commonly known.. it is still apparently well known among certain circles.
     
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  14. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    Seven gems, there's a clear one in the center. I could only guess what it means.. but if it has any connection with past lore, seven could mean the virtues formed from the three principles, minus humility, since the gems are all contained within the shared space between the swords, with one in the center, shared by all of them.

    I think they match the color of the virtues too ( http://ultima.wikia.com/wiki/Eight_Virtues ), excepting humility, which is black.
     
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  15. Bowen Bloodgood

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    They do indeed.. I'm pretty sure the book says six though which I found odd. Either I'm just not remembering correctly or perhaps it's a typo?
     
  16. redfish

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    It starts by saying a clear gem in the center, then it goes on to say besides that the swords are surrounded by six color gems.. so you're only remembering the second line, I think. Also curious is the fact that one blade on the carving turns from black to silver.
     
  17. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    This is also from the prequel novels, which (from what Tracy has said) take place a goodly amount of time before the beginning of the game. The meaning of the symbol is not commonly known at that time; we have no idea how well known it will be when the game starts.
     
  18. Bowen Bloodgood

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    What we can be sure of is that there is written record of the symbol. It could be very well known or only known to a few.. but the point is that it IS known. Not only is it known, but it will appear the world. It will be encountered. In the very least we know that the symbol appears in certain tombs and on special swords we could end up finding.
     
  19. redfish

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    I was thinking about how the prosperity items could maybe use a symbol on them instead of the word "prosperity" verbosely written out, and I came up with this idea.

    [​IMG]

    A wheel in the middle of an 8-pointed star (Soyuz). The second version of course uses the star from skill wheels. The wheel itself is reminiscent of the skill wheels, but wheels have been used for symbolizing fortune in many different cultures. In eastern religion, it alludes to 'the wheel of becoming', spiritual development and the flow of nature, and in the West, the 'wheel of fortune', where it has a more capricious meaning. But outlined by the Soyuz ('determination gives flight to greatness'), there's a clear connection between the meaning of 'fortune' and 'greatness', as well as a connection to the skill wheels.
     
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  20. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Interesting. It does seem kind of silly to have '<item name> of Prosperity' written on everything doesn't it?

    I'm not sure how likely it is to get them changed though since they've already been approved and advertised. You should send the idea to Starr directly via PM. They'd only have to retexture the items but someone would have to take time out to do it.
     
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