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New Control point crowd control is not "fun", it's fake difficulty

Discussion in 'Release 38 Dev+ Feedback Forum' started by Umuri, Jan 24, 2017.

  1. Poor game design

    Poor game design Avatar

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    I want to make it clear that I'm fine with people working in groups and having challenging control points.

    What I'm not fine with is making control points the "best" way to gain XP and loot. That seems really EQ and WOWish to me. As a solo player, it's very hard for me to socially pick up groups and go "raid" or whatever people call it. I just don't find that to be enjoyable. So if that's the "best" way to level a character then I think that's really a poor design choice that is not very inclusive of the very common choice to "play alone".

    But beyond that, I also feel as though the purpose of control points was supposed to be about travelling around the map, regional economies, and making it more important that the control point was accessible, not going there over and over again to get "phat loot". To me that's a distraction from the primary function of this game, roleplaying, and I hope the developers are thinking more consciously about that as we get closer to launch because right now this is a huge grind fest, imo. Every second someone is out in the middle of a control point endlessly farming, they're NOT roleplaying. The same thing can be said for many of the activities that occur during the game. Much of that I attribute to the game not being finished, but when I see control points constantly being updated with farming in mind, I have to wonder if that's anything more....

    I hope there is.
     
  2. GrayFog

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    I wouldn't lock it for just everyone.
    But you could lock each participant in the party for X hours for that one CP.
    (Edit: nm, just reread your post, you said exactly the same, lol sorry :p)

    The benefit of this would be that theese people would have to move on to the next CP then.
    We have quite a few CPs in the World.

    So why not?

    But i think 24 hours is quite harsh, maybe 4 Hours or so?
    Ofc. after 4 Hours and after they finished the last CP, the first one might be up again.
    But that way people would have to journey arround atleast.
     
  3. Poor game design

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    I like that as a possible option. It's a good example of how to make them less about farming and more of an "event".

    There are probably 100 different suggestions I would have, or add to that thought, but it's certainly more of a step in the right direction than where we are now as control points are currently giant replayable XP/Loot machines.
     
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  4. Poor game design

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    Last thought on this and then I'm done posting here.

    The control point is not supposed to be farmed over and over again. The design is supposed to be (as I've always understood it) a place that players defeat for the sole purpose of being able to travel through it. If we reduce control points to XP/Loot machines, we waste an opportunity to make control points meaningful in ways that other scenes can never be meaningful.

    The idea that we would just move from control point to control point farming endlessly should not be part of the design, ever, imo. I don't care how much fun some portion of the players think that is, it's not healthy for the game economy or the challenge of the game.
     
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  5. GrayFog

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    I see your points and concerns. Yes i really do.

    CPs currently are really not easy at all and if they were only there for the sole purpose of being able to travel through and nothing else nobody would bother doing them.
    Try nerfing CPs to crap XP and zero loot and the result would be empty CPs 24/7.

    HOWEVER!!!
    I totally agree with the overall farming part.
    And that doesn't count for just the CPs.
    IMO you shouldn't be able to farm non stop:
    - CPs
    - Dragons
    - Daemons
    - Phoenix
    - Bosses in general
    - and so on...
     
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  6. Dark Tidings

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    Great Ideas
     
  7. mikedeathdealer

    mikedeathdealer Avatar

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    Yeah im currently at 110+ GM's.. Don't think anyone else is passed 100 yet. I just feel that

    People want to farm control points cause its the highest level content in the game.. It brings a guild or a group together that would be soloing lets say DRW solo. If you bring a group of like minded people and accomplish a high level control point should you not be rewarded more exp for doing so? I mean it's more challenging and takes more effort then farming stupid weak ass wolves in DRW.. People want challenging and "REWARDING" things when they log on.. To be honest have you even done a control point and know what it takes to make it successful? Once again i'm tired of the "forum" warriors who love and praise everything and anything the dev's say or do... Maybe once you reach a higher level you will realize what the dev's are doing are ruining the game. I mean out of all the high levels mid 90's to 100+ only a handful are still around.. I wonder why.. They have turned something that has been fun and rewarding into a not so fun and rewarding game. TBH just get all your skills to 80 and just stop playing.... Cause after that it gets way to much of a grind and a lot less rewarding for the time and effort it takes for this game.
     
  8. Umuri

    Umuri Avatar

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    This is great news.
    I'd always rather things be too hard then eased up then exploited too easily then made harder.
    And I definitely think the changes are a step in the right direction towards making them more fun while being difficult.
    After mages, we could add Archers having root effects, or melee npcs having a grapply (can't move away).


    This was suggested back when control points went to the stupid-short timers they were on for months, and i don't remember the reason it was shot down. But I think it's something worth considering.
     
  9. majoria70

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    Because it is group content like the game 'capture the flag' type of thing, or king of bunker hill, yikes or whatever. It is group challenge and learn your character at a different level that just off playing by yourself. You are responsible for others, it's not all about you, it's about what can you do for the group to help the group and what you can do to make your character help better. I have to keep on my toes when I heal or someone dies and when I'm healing others have to watch their healer. So much is going on, it is a blast. ;)
     
  10. Poor game design

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    Too many personal attacks in your comments for me to take what you're saying at face value. You're really assuming that I "don't play the game" which would be incorrect. I think my level, XP, playing time would rank fairly high in our small population of players, though admittedly it wouldn't be 110 GM's or whatever level you're at. However using that logic, would ANYONE be capable of commenting on this subject other than you?

    If you like grouping that's fine. If you like farming control points, that's fine too. But this game shouldn't force me to group anymore than it forces you to solo. Rewards should be based on risk, and if you have 8 people in a group, that seems like less risk than someone that is playing solo. You're right that being in a control point changes the odds, but seriously if you're making the case that once you figure out the "formula" to beating a control point consistently that should somehow equate to massive XP and loot forever, I don't subscribe to that line of thinking.

    Endlessly grinding out XP and loot in a control point is a really poor "game". What's the purpose of that? What's the goal you're trying to reach? If the answer is to keep the treadmill running, I think that's a poor answer.

    EDIT: To be very honest here, if control points ever start working correctly from a challenge stand point, then people that have 110 GM's will start dying in the game A LOT, thus resulting in a lot less GM's. But that's still not the designed purpose of control points, it's just the way we measure success when designing the challenge level. At least, in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2017
  11. mikedeathdealer

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    Sorry but
    Sorry but a lot of people don't want to log in and have "Dance" parties.. Or RP walk around town... People want to go out and level up and feel rewarded for the time invested in the game... We lack any kind of good "loot" tables or anything rewarding in the game. Anything that would be rewarding in the game like in game gold or good exp just gets nerfed to the ground. The state of the game is not the best atm.. The Decline in active players are getting worse and worse.. Its time to make a change to bring players back. More active players = more players willing to buy the add on store fluff.. <-- seems that's all they care about is addon store items atm.. Money Money Money!
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2017
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  12. Poor game design

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    It's not capture the flag. It's maybe king of the hill.

    But when you capture the flag or you secure the hill, what's the point? That's what you need to be asking yourself (or that's what the designers should be asking themselves). If the point is to just do it all over again, that's not very compelling game play.
     
  13. Dark Tidings

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    Nope c dingle if u are dingle then c a mirror.

    But i think hes like in the 120s
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2017
  14. mikedeathdealer

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    Well what would you want people to do? Endlessly farm level 5 skull zones fighting wolves, spider and bears? I mean i did that from 50-97 in DRW.... Until a group of us could migrate to doing control points. That's where the stepping stones lead us too.. Once we reached that point and leveled up and got confident enough we then skimmed down the party to yield more xp. You know More Risk For more Reward! But they way the devs have been taking action on things they want to increase the risk for less reward.. I mean its not hurting me to say in a sense.. But look at yourself or others who aren't at the level or in a group or "guild" who aren't able to do CP's atm. They have now made them even worse for the casuals and new players to even look up to achieving anytime soon. This cat and mouse game is not hurting the cat.. It's the mouse that suffers.
     
  15. mikedeathdealer

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    I am Dingle. IF that's what you are refering to..
     
  16. Dark Tidings

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    Yea ok i vote for u!
     
  17. majoria70

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    In this case there is the points I mentioned for players. If you are thinking about how capturing the control points means anything like in a story way as an achievement that you need to do for some reason. I don't look at it like that atm. It is group content not single player content and we don't have an achievement system to give purpose to many things. We have had to find our own fun and perhaps you are thinking control points served a purpose to give a challenge to people passing through areas, but who said that that was all they were for? This game does not have it so everything has meaning and we need things to do. Boss runs are fun. Many of us played WOW and those boss runs were pretty epic. The bosses did the strangest things and each player had a part to do to succeed and it was not easy. You had to know when to jump, when to move out of the way and when to do your part to help the party succeed for the type of character you were playing. Like Mez him at a certain time etc. So I do know that you are looking out for the game and care about it as I do, and I appreciate your questions to help. There is more than one way to look at it though, sure give reasons for doing things. I am so for that, and give us tons to do. I am not much of a role-player but I totally respect and want that aspect for this game also.
     
  18. Poor game design

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    Does there need to be more high level content? Sure.

    That doesn't excuse control points that serve no other function. The game is still in development so there's plenty of gaps in "play" at the moment. PVP is a perfect example of that.

    But the on-going exploitation of control points and the complete disregard for their intended purpose are two things I'd like to see fixed. I'm concerned that we continue to create new versions of control points that essentially do the same thing, allow groups of people to get tons of XP and Loot disproportionately to anyone that's not in a control point.
     
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  19. mikedeathdealer

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    People throwing out the "exploit" comment about control points are getting way out of hand. The dev's have known way before persistence how much exp we were getting and how people were doing them. If they had a huge problem about them they could of stopped it a LONG time ago. But yet they let them stay the way they were for months. Only time they started to do anything about them is when we started to solo or start doing sale runs for exp. Just shows that they really didn't care and were working as intended. I just feel bad for all the guild's who are suffering from the actions that the dev's have been hindering high end group content...
     
  20. Poor game design

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    Regardless of the developers response time to control points, I will let the collective history of changes (past and future) be my response to how much intention the devs had for the way control points used to be or are at the current time.