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New Grind Solution

Discussion in 'Release 25 Feedback Forum' started by Poor game design, Dec 27, 2015.

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  1. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    How about this...

    What if we actively determine the average level per active player. Then calculate an experience modifier based on that number. So people that are at the higher level might have a debuff to experience gain, just to keep them in the ballpark of the other players. But they can still continue to grind to their hearts content, they just have to work a lot harder than everyone else to get their levels.

    This would work in conjunction with the soft cap. So for example if you were level 80 and the average player in the game was level 30 (let's just say this is how it is 1 week after launch), then perhaps you'd have an experinece modifier that was negative 50%. You could still get higher levels but it would take twice as much work as the average player.

    Another example would be a player that is level 35 would gain experience 5% slower than the average player.

    Does that sound fair?
     
  2. Bowen Bloodgood

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    No... no it doesn't. We already have diminishing returns the higher up you get.. now maybe those need tweaking but hey.. pre-alpha.. but to add additional penalties on top of that.. why? The game is already intended for there to not be a huge power discrepancy.. so assuming that is handled properly this would only be punishing people for attaining a higher level than someone else.
     
  3. Noric

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    More or less incentivizes people not to play the game (they will just gain faster if they wait). Not sure that would be a good idea
     
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  4. Selene

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    Don't punish the hardcore gamers because you don't want to spend the time grinding your levels.
     
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  5. Drocis the Devious

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    These two responses are very telling.

    Here's the thing... If people don't want to grind, are we incentizing them to quit the game? But you're saying that's ok so long as the people that want to grind are rewarded for it?

    That's a very telling response indeed.
     
  6. Drocis the Devious

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    It's not punishing anyone. This is a roleplaying game.

    If people aren't playing to roleplay and they're instead just playing to "level" then the point of the game is lost. I would say that this solution should be very freeing in that you know that instead of grinding out levels you can actually go out and roleplay or pvp or craft knowing that it's more "cost effective" than grinding out more levels.

    This actually incentizes people to do something OTHER than level. Which in my opinion is MUCH healthier for the game.
     
  7. Selene

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    Not at all. You are proposing to remove the incentive from people who want to work hard to be the best. That way, players all end up being the same level because grinding higher is impossible. If I spend 4 hours in the gym a day and you go three times a week for 20 mins, why would you expect to be in anywhere as good a shape?

    People should be rewarded for their play time. Period. Grinding at higher levels is already more difficult. If you want to compete with the people who strive to be the best, then strive to be the best. Don't expect it to be handed to you. Otherwise, where is the success in that? The hardcore gamers will just get bored and move on because there is no reward for trying to be better.
     
  8. Sold and gone

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    I feel the same way about role play! :) This is why I always push for the harder more role play elements and playstyle. :)
     
  9. Bubonic

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    the entire system is based of of leveling. not having to face on leveling would be great but that would require a full rework of the mechanics, and we are way too far past that at this point.

    this solution still makes everyone grind the same as before, but removes the reward for doing so at higher levels.

    -1.
     
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  10. Drocis the Devious

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    No, I'm not proposing that. I'm proposing that "being the best" requires more work if you're moving that far away from the pack.

    Well welcome to my world. I'd like to be good too, but there's a point where I just throw my hands in the air and say "this is boring and stupid" and "I hate this". I thought people liked to grind because it was fun? Why isn't it fun when you can't just achieve more levels without being light years ahead of everyone else?

    First of all, this is a game. If you play Monopoly for 5 hours and then I come over to your house and you say "let's play Monopoly! I already own all the properties and have hotels everywhere!" why would I want to play that game with you?

    Second of all, when it comes to PVP you're not playing that game, yet you're being rewarded in a way where you get good at it simply because you grind a lot.

    Third, simply going to "the gym" doesn't mean you'll be stronger or in better shape than me. It just means you goto the gym more than I do. My wife works out everyday and is in great health. I don't work out at all but I'm still stronger and faster than she'll ever be.

    I play the game all the time, I just don't grind all the time. Why don't I get experience for just playing the game? Why do I have to mindlessly kill stuff while not roleplaying or contributing to the game socially? Don't confuse your idea about how this game should be played as being the ONLY way this game should be played.
     
  11. Drocis the Devious

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    Once you get to a certain level, you're going to be able to finish all the quests and complete the main story line. I'm sure we agree on that much.

    So why do people have to be OVER that level? Well some people just love to achieve, and others like to dominate pvp, still others enjoy that challenge. This solution would allow people to keep achieving levels, but slow down pvp domination, and still give people a challenge. It's actually quite an eloquent solution.
     
  12. Sold and gone

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    Hard Caps For The Win. :)
     
  13. Vyrin

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    I don't think this has to be contentious, and I think the solution isn't captured by anyone here, although it was brought up in another thread.

    The problem is not really with those who have 24/7 to play a game or use it to engage just one aspect of the game like grinding to be high level. The problem is if new players, or those making their way up the skill level slowly, have no option but to fight them or encounter them. If there is competition that is appropriate to where you are in building your skill, then all the difficulties can be managed. The problem is when those with time can use it as a bludgeon to overwhelm those who don't. Just like those who might be rich could buy things in a true P2W game to overwhelm those who can't. Who would play chess if your only option was to encounter a grand master every time? Only those who didn't mind losing over and over to get good at something, which isn't fun to most people and so would drive most away. If you're going to encounter a grand master, it's usually more in a teaching role than in a competitive one, and you find peers whom you can practice with.

    PvE is usually managed so that you have realistic opportunities to win/lose as you go forward through skill progression. If there was some way to handle PvP and other competitive aspect of the game in the same way, it would make for a more satisfying experience for a wider group of players. However, if there are a few 24/7 players who end up dominating everyone else, as could happen with the way the game is designed right now, then many will be frustrated. There are many ways this could be improved from a mechanics perspective, but I will leave others smarter than I to address them.

    This is why the only PvP games I will play are the ones where I can be matched to those at my skill level (or where it doesn't matter so much) and I can choose whether or not I want to engage someone who has much more experience than I do. That way I can progress and enjoy some competition according to the limited time I have to play. I don't want my limited time playing a game for entertainment to be an exercise in beating my head against the wall. If a game is dominated by the 24/7 people who get good at certain things, I will stay away from them in any competitive setting.

    This is why we have everything from the NFL down to amateur neighborhood pick-up games. If your only option to play football was to play with NFL players who would?
     
  14. Selene

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    I think PvP events and tournaments are a great option for people who want to pit their skills against other players. It would be great if some of those events has level brackets, so it is only always against the level 70+ crowd. However, if you're going to play open PvP in the world, you are choosing to swim with sharks. Don't try and remove the teeth from the shark just because you don't want to get bitten.
     
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  15. Drocis the Devious

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    Exactly. Or better yet, would someone want to play me if I were always 60 levels higher than they were? I have yet to hear of a volunteer for that challenge. Nor have I heard one of the 24/7 people saying that it's ok for me to buy my levels in the add-on store.

    This conversation is very much like going to an NFL forum and hearing Payton Manning telling everyone that some other Quarterback is not allowed to be as powerful as he is because he's only a rookie. :)
     
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  16. Drocis the Devious

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    There's no skill involved in this combat system though. The teeth of the shark have already been removed. Being a high level just means you have more hit points and you do more damage. That has nothing to do with skill. So you're advocating a system that converts mindless killing of AI into PVP dominance, and hiding behind the idea that somehow the people most deserving of winning pvp are those that do the least amount of pvp.

    This system is making sharks fight blue gill and then allowing the blue gill to win...BECAUSE they are blue gill.
     
  17. Selene

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    A rookie football player DOES have to work harder, because they don't have the experience. And a rookie player is still putting in the long hours, not asking for someone to do the work for him, to tie 50lb weights around Peyton Manning's ankles so they can compete.
     
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    Some people might choose this of course. But not this guy. I just do not like getting a beatdown over and over again. I would try it once or twice then give up on it probably. I for one liked the matched battleground system in wow. Now that had pvp and pve people joining up to play.
     
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  19. Selene

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    I think in another thread somewhere (might have been one of the guild wars ones) Darkstarr mentioned that they plan to have group pvp battle zones that you sign up to a "team" to play. I think those will be a lot of fun.
     
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    I know Chris has mentioned it. :)
     
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