No Melee Engineers Anymore...

I think the problem was they were set up with movement like archers but didn't have bows, that caused them to act funny. They only started doing that in R52.

 

I'm not sure that is always the case. When using a catapult, there are three jobs: one takes range and other factors and tries to determine where to direct the fire, then gives those to another group who makes adjustments to the catapults themselves and fires them, then directing a third group to reset the catapult and make repairs as necessary. In reality, they would be defended by combat troops, and would probably not be expected to defend the catapults themselves. I think you could simplify this in-game to just be two groups, 2/3 of which are hammer-wielders and 1/3 of which are archers.

 

Noticed this also...

Thanks for the heads up Sannyo. As stated above, I think some tech could be added so this kind of “workarounds” where not necessary...

I’d really like to see for instance engineers using their explosive potions on us, or being able to deploy automatic turrets (those looking like Oracle minions) and other concepts as the like of a siege engineer... even aggroing all his surroundings while barking “come to me guys” would be fine.

As a shield fighter, I am not concerned at archery damage at all... I’ll block most of them. The real nuisance is the current “catch the mouse” mechanic. Even with gap closers like charge, shield bash to add stun, etc. I usually find myself running around the camp like a clown chasing archers that will start to run even if I am yet at 7 meters away from them.

Then it just becomes tiresome. Not hard, but very annoying and movement intensive to a simple PvE, hence why I avoid an “all archers” fight at all costs. This is not just a simple rant, it comes from hours of experience with the mountain sieges, whereas I’ve decided to not partake in them anymore, ever.

I so was entering every forest siege I could in any sieges town... until now.

Even more, an engineer who also happens to be a marksman breaks the “feeling” of an RPG for me, that just don’t make too much sense. A really good archer would’ve been spent years of training, while being a good engineer AND a good archer is somewhat “odd”. A hammer yielding one would make more sense since he has been tinkering with hammers for a while now. And grenades (ranged), rifles or even ocasional “sniper” crossbows also would make more sense. Aside from the fact that he would distaste to be running around all the time.

And although I may be self advocating a bit, you can see for yourself how this would also improve the overall experience.

Oh and btw, to make it more challenging you could also add higher tier engineers saying, when the last catapult is the only one remaining with the 3 last engineers, so they would be more committed to defend it.

Anyway, always glad you guys are listening. Thanks.

 

Maybe remove ebon marksmen from the sieges and up the chances of champions to compensate? Otherwise between the engineers, marksmen, and high wizards, nearly all the spawns near catapults will be ranged.

 

or make the engineer wimpier and give them (more) melee guards

 

First off, glad a Dev at least replied to this thread and is paying attention to feedback on this subject.

Secondly, the biggest issue with this change for a melee character is the fact that these Engineer/Archers constantly run away every time you get into melee range. 95% of the fight for a melee against these guys is chasing them down and it's super frustrating.

Also, since there are multiples of them, the 3-4 archers all spread out and while you are chasing the one down you are trying to kill, the other 2-3 are shooting you in the back with arrows. It's impossible to avoid all those "backstab" arrows when you have to chase one all over the place.

Perhaps a good solution would be to keep them as archers initially, but if/when you get into melee range with them... make them switch to a hammer and duke it out with you face to face, instead of kiting you all over while the others spray you with arrows? Is it even possible to have an NPC have a dual AI for both archer and melee? If so, and if this was done, at least a melee character could then re-position themselves to the opposite side of the other archers and can now avoid all the backstab arrows. Perhaps the Engineer you are now in melee with could also be used for cover too?

If this change remains as is now, there will not be very many melee players spending time in the sieges. At least not as a solo player anyway.

 

A simple review of how many people are spending time in hills sieges vs forest sieges would probably show a huge popularity for the forest version. Now what is the logic to change the forest sieges to more closely represent the hills sieges? Seems counter productive to me if your base interest is to have more players active in the game and paying money. That said, it also seems to me that when the catapults are disabled, the mercenaries should increase their effectiveness against the enemy. With all three catapults disabled, it should be a pretty even fight mercenaries vs the cultists. Now cabalists are a different issue!

 

In theory they should have hammers - but TBH I'm just glad they don't have turrets..

 

This is the biggest thing for me, the fight is doable, but it is not enjoyable, it is frustrating. I've done a lot of forest sieges but stayed away from the mountain sieges because they were just painful to go through. The hammers made sense to me since they were engineers, but giving them the ability to toss explosive potions or caltrops as well would be interesting.

 

Can't they just be good at 2 skill trees? Ranged and melee; The catapult is their ranged weapon, a hammer with shield as their melee weapon.

 

This is all well and good but not really truthful. Artillery is a completely different type of ranged than archery. I was a military engineer and our specialty was mobility / counter mobility. Building things and destroying things. Your player base is much smarter than this. Sorry, but I feel the change was needed because Melee is just to easy for so many players, there are too many who just waltz into the middle of a group of mobs and just do what they do. I may be wrong but - from the games perspective players are better off hearing why changes are actually made. You have to many players who have chased the template of the day and just run into the middle of a bunch of critters and use AOE and crowd control to wipe things out. As a result changes are being made to give mobs range which will make players "chase" them around more.

Sooooo

From my perspective you needed to change a few things awesome, change is good, - but to "fix" engineers, give them the ability to throw explosive pots and place explosive traps and stuff to properly defend their catapults. The explosive pots can be much stronger and also be different type - gas / fire / freezing . . . . Spend some time in development creating real engineers who can compete with the players you have allowed to persist in your world. Not just make them ranged archers - all you are doing with this change is effectively making it harder for the types of players who actually "play" the game and are not just out there min maxing templates. ((***please all of you who are going to pile on that comment, don't I know what you mean and you know what I mean**)) I will still be able to work my way threw them, it will just be more difficult for me, the top tier will only flinch slightly to this change.

I am all for changes to make the game harder but you can do it so much better than just changing things to "ranged" because Melee is to easy.

Side note this - it piles right onto my thread about standing toe to toe with Reapers. If you start walking down this path the entire game will be low tier places for new players and then high tier places that are needed to give the top end players have something compatible to them. Are you going to give Reaper skills like they swing their branches they move all players out of melee range, or the ability to wrap players up in the roots or limbs that stop them from doing high damage spells or swings if they are foolish enough to stand too close Or take the easy fix and just make changes like this that give the Reapers the ability to throw twigs, to keep players back? same concept.

 

Combat is just one bandage fix after another. And then a new bandage with some gum this time to fix the problem the first fix made.

Need fundamental change in how a fight progresses, not these fixes.
1. Our AI is not too bright and avatars just stand toe to toe and kill them. Let's add more HP!
2. Now the avatars are kiting in circles while our melee AIs are helpless. Let's add more HP, more mobs, and make sure they spawn right behind everyone!
3. AOE spells and kiting now. Hmm, better add a bunch of ranged guys because fixing the melee types would make too much sense!
4. Oh yeah, make sure the ranged guys can run and shoot arrows out their arses at the same time! And they are unfazed by melee strikes and can continue to shoot! Oh, oh! And shoot around corners too! And unlimited arrows with zero encumbrance!

Blah, blah, that is my rant today. Fingers crossed on Episode 2.

 

Most body slams (I'd say at least 50%) get dodged by the siege archers... so you use it close and they just run again. My body slam is locked at 106. so yeah that's a problem for melee fighters.

 

You also first have to get close enough to your target to even use body slam...

 

Consider dividing the "Engineers" into two (or three) types.
1) Engineers. Hammer users that build and maintain the equipment.
2) Artillery. Ranged experts that operate the equipment.
3) Spotters. Magic users just for variety

The majority would be engineers that could defend the others from players, whilst the artillerists (is that a word?) and spotters hit them with ranged attacks.

 

I'd rather have the previous mix of majority melee, some ranged, few wizard mix, but if you're going to keep all of the engineers as ranged, then drastically increase their xp and loot to compensate.

It'll still be frustrating as melee, but enough xp and loot would make it still worthwhile.

 

Yes, they should be sappers... We have explosive potions in the game already, though it would be nice to see the flaming oil from Ultima games, which would also leave an AoE field of fire where it hit.

 

They heard about the impending melee nerfs and switched like everyone else to become a ranged or mage

 

lol

Yeah now theyre just not fun, running in circles after fleeing siege engineers whilst also having elite marksmen , just not fun anymore.

 

Gasp Perhaps we have not gone far enough. All engineers should spawn at once, and cabalists should roam the pass keeping stray avatars from sneaking through. Destroy all armor in sight and cripple all wasd control mechanics. Decrease all loot to prevent farming. Being serious, though, it will be interesting to compare avatar/siege activity R-52 vs R-53. If activity drops 90% or more then we can celebrate the huge success at a big party location tbd.