Open PvP feedback (R12)

I have tested open PvP for two weeks with a short break.

It should be probably noted, that I do not like open PvP. My experience was so far mixed and I try to keep an open mind, besides I think this system deserves testing even if I am not likely to use it.

So what is wrong with open PvP?

Our friends are enemies. Our guildmates are enemies. Our party members are allies, unless we duel them and then we are stuck in duel until we kill each other.

We need mutual! friendlist. If both people declare each other as friend, they should be marked as friendly to each other unless they change that (for training purposes or just to fight over the treasure). There should be option to fight friends. However even more we need option to heal them and resurrect them. And we need mutual friendlist because one way friendlist is broken in so many ways and can be easily abused or exploited. It is good to track people, even if they do not track us, but they should not be called 'friends'.

Also, when I duel someone and we are interrupted by someone else, we need option to team-up on-the-fly and be able to heal each other. I want to uce Ctrl or Alt to heal myself otherwise to heal my target no matter whether they are my enemy or not. And I did not spent tons of points on resurrection to not be able to use it. I want to resurrect people, even if they are PvPers. Perhaps especially if they are PvPers.

We also need some sort of KoS list (like permanent list). I know about block list but it is not practical for many reasons. I want to mark some people as 'enemies' and see their name red (instead of yellow) or something like that (perhaps see them yellow and other PvPers in blue like everyone else?). Anyone who attacks me when I am talking to merchant or skill trainer or I when I am reading forums deserves to be put on this list imho (well actually I made such list, but character names can be changed). I understand that for some people Open PvP is about ability to kill people from behind. I just think that if that is the case, we need to have option to form alliance and kill such people before they get even close to merchants and people talking to them.

I mentioned it previously but being attacked when making deck or talking to merchant is annoying and if you are squishy mage you are most likely dead before you get chance to get to combat mode. You are also dead when you respawn with 20% of the health or how much. We need to be protected upon respawn or when we cannot fight back. The game is unplayable in open PvP if you cannot talk to NPCs without having someone watching your backs.

It is quite impossible to win 2v1 fight. Sometimes it is even hard to get away from it. Sure, numbers matter, but it makes griefing by numbers especially easy and only 'solution' is to switch to singleplayer.

On the upside, I have noticed that many people marked for open PvP just played the game and did not mindlessly attack each other. This gives me hope that maybe being marked for PvP will be possible. Some people even asked me if I am ok with fight and if I was not, they did not fight me.

Still, we need more 'good' people in PvP to police areas. More often than not I was the only PvPer in a location among non-PvPers, rarely there was someone else and if they were evil, the chances for help were slim.

TL;DR:

- We need option to heal other PvPers
- We need list for enemies (perhaps once we have some reputation games, PKs will marked as enemies automatically). There is no need to mark everyone (in PvP) as enemy with yellow name, unless they deserve such distinction by their actions
- We need consequences for attacking people in the city for no reason
- We need temporary respawn protection

 

Talking about Open PVP and player action consequences it would be great criminal player names showing in a different color, and another consequence would be expanded name radius visibility.
Or even better NPCs would shout name of criminals present in the area .

 

Great post Net ive seen and experienced exactly these things. And i dont care open pvp is not just about griefing and rekilling etc a player over and over. Flagged for pvp or not it is stupid and childish. I guess maybe my view points are a bit more honorable than just gank a person while at skills trainers etc. Its ok to a point but it does get to crossing a line.

I would like to also see blue healing players that work with a flagged person atleast become flagged for it, though it can be a temporary deal.

 

Yes good post i do agree with some of it, i dont think that a non pvp healer should be able to heal PVP, if they do they should be auto marked as pvp. If your healing my enemy you are my enemy! I think there also should be a minute immunity on respawn, so the the dead can go somwhere away from the attacker if they are camping, and monsters cant attack you while out in the wilderness as well until that 1 minute timer is up. I too hate it when somone PVPs me as im at the skill trainer! or talking to a vendor and im kind of on the fence with that i would think in the final release guards would jump in on the attacker, for it! but its just the alpha so if i get attacked it just happens ...but some people learned the hard way! Not everyone is vulnerable at that moment!

 

Excellent feedback, and I agree with some of your points.

- Healing other Open PvP players? Only if you both are flagged Open PvP.
- I think a personal enemy list would be great to give them a different visual indicator vs all other Open PvP players. This is a per-user customization so it doesn't affect anyone else's game. It simply means instead of a yellow nameplate, it can be red (or whatever). Or even some other personal visual indicator.
- Totally agreed. They need to implant brains into the town guards and NPCs (and animals).
- Yes, spawn camping is lame in its current implementation. I wouldn't require absolute protection, but some other mechanism is needed. Because with the death timer in effect your attributes are penalized severely. We need a better way.

But what's a criminal? Open PvP is a purely consensual flag. There are no forced killings. By flagging Open PvP you are saying it's ok to kill you. Anywhere. At any time. Otherwise what's the point of an Open PvP flag? Just use duels or go to forced PvP-zones or arenas.

If we can figure out that definition, I'd be ok with different nameplate colors (that everyone can see) or NPCs shouting out your name. But I would be against increased nameplate visibility.

 

Open PVP doesn't mean you have to be mean. (PVP flag is much more than a consensual flag)

I like open PVP world because its more exciting, flagging my self as PVP player doesn't mean I want to kill every single PVP player on sight.
In other words open PVP flag is allowing people to be mean, attacking another player and killing him is actually a criminal act.
The fact that you are flagged as PVP doesn't mean you have to KILL other players for fun, but if you decide to do so you should be marked as criminal.

That was the power of UO giving players the freedom to decide their way.....

Have you ever played UO? you only live once, you really should ..........

 

Agreed. I brought it up to spurn some discussion on what the community felt was a criminal given we have a purely consensual system in place. It was very clear cut when it was non-consensual. Here, not so much. I know there are anti-PK guilds forming, which is what I was also thinking of when I posed that question.

And yes, I absolutely loved UO. Played from Beta and on for several years.

 

Well, I think that any unprovoked (what is provoked?) attack in city should mark one as criminal. Or for simplicity any attack on anyone not marked as criminal (in city or patrolled area).

Perhaps there could be some exception for duels and fights with consent of both parties. Still, I think that duels on the street could be considered as criminal act as well as people endanger citizens around them.

People obviously need the right to defend themselves (without being marked as criminals). People need to be able to help their friends (without being marked as criminals). I think it would be nice to be able to help strangers (without being marked as criminals).

It is nice to be able to duel in city, though it often looks silly and sometimes I think that guards should do something about it. I am bit torned on this one.

Attacking anyone who has sheated weapon and is not criminal is imho criminal act. So anyone who attacks someone talking to vendor should be marked as criminal.

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That being said, there should be different levels for criminals (marked as criminal only in one city, in a land, in the whole world...). I have not seen much anywhere about crime and bounty hunting, but it is a key aspect of working Open PvP world.

 

Net i agree with you 100 percent across the board.

i have been PvP for a week (not really playing all that much) and so far, even without the proper mechanics, it has been a pleasurable experience. I only had one non-consensual fight so far, and it was an epic battle that lasted about 20 min in deep ravenswood.

basically, Parallelogram 1v2'd myself and another party member and eventually killed us both. i believe he out ranked us by about 30 levels, but it was interesting to see the result. I am glad they added this optional feature to r12 even though its rough.

I also had lots of consensuals 1v1 and 2v2 and in the process, had a lot of insightful exchanges.

regarding PvP in general :

i dont think anything that portalarium does to the game will "create" a divide. This divide between PvP and PvM classes is inherent. yes there will always be the power player that is on 24/7 grinding to level 90 just to be able to grief people. that is human nature. looks like open pvp for everyone is out of the question for SotA by now, but i hope there remains a mechanism for the PvP class and if so, we need to be able to identify each other as villans or heroes, friend or foe.

 

I totally agree with this. We need a criminal system. However I strongly disagree with what Net said in another thread where he called a person attacking a player that is afk griefing. There are some really bad people called PKs that take advantage of such situations, therefore a PvPer needs always be on alert. That's OK I always was in UO. That never happened to me, and it shouldn't to anybody in this game either. If it does then it is their fault, or they had a real life medical emergency (one or the other). Therefore calling it griefing (which is a TOS violation) is not the right word. PKs must be apart of the PvP experience. However there needs to be consequences so that only the scum of the earth want to be a PK.


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There should be consequences for our actions. There should still be guild wars and other faction type wars that have legal rights to attack one another, but if two people are flagged for PvP it doesn't mean a player should just kill a person for no reason without consequences, but by no means should it ever be a violation of the terms of services.

I accept Net's opinion above, and I also acknowledge him as a non-PvP type player. That is perfectly fine. However to judge PvP on a whole based on a pre-alph version of PvP isn't fair either. This is not how the game will be when it is launched. Killing for the sake of killing is all we can do at this time. PvP will not be like that when the game is released.

I PKed people in this release, but I will NEVER PK a person with my character Isaiah after the game is released. I want to play him virtuously. ALSO I HATE PKs in general.


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Net's point about always losing in a 2 on one situation is a valid point though. In UO I was able to take on mulitple opponents and survive. However not all the skills are in the game and they certainly aren't ballanced. *I suspect that heavy armored people with two handed axes might have trouble casting gust of wind 100% of their attempts.* So some tactics will change. So don't prejudge the game based upon a pre-alpha test. However I do agree that PvP is not yet ready nor is it entirely skill based quite yet. There is still a ways to go for that.

 

I see no reason just because someone flags PVP that they can't be judged as a criminal....all you would have to do is have players who attack other players, the initiator as set to a variable that recognizes their actions....attack enough people/kill enough and you are flagged as a criminal....

Note this wouldn't have an affect if you are defending yourself.

 

Honestly the PvP in this game is at such an infant state, I really haven't seen many unscrupulous PK types running around. I my self am not a PK, but I've gone out of my way to attack a few people in an unscrupulous manner to see what people would do. Usually they would get back up and try to get me, but some people took it personal. LOL I was just kidding. However when the game get's going there will be real PKs that come out of the woodwork and they will really be ruthless. So stay alert if you want to flag PvP.

Rather than punish these people we should let the players go after them, but we need a criminal system. IF we can create a player justice system then we can get revenge.

 

That's why I was saying just have a variable counter that keeps track of their attacking other players....just have it set so that when in certain situations (like a war zone) that it doesn't increase....but if you just walk up to joe blow and swing at him then it increases....there easy peasy karma system.

 

I am not even gonna read some of the replies but here are my thought

- We need option to heal other PvPers - nothing stopping you from healing another PvPer what needs to stop is the ablitily of None Open PvPer healing a OPvP in a PvP fight.
- We need list for enemies (perhaps once we have some reputation games, PKs will marked as enemies automatically). There is no need to mark everyone (in PvP) as enemy with yellow name, unless they deserve such distinction by their actions - If they have (PvP) at the end of the name they can be considered and enemy Learn who your friends and enemies are, until you figure it our shields are always up.
- We need consequences for attacking people in the city for no reason - You are OPvP your choice if you are in a town just standing there AFK, well that is kinda follish Personally if you are OPvP and I find you sanding there I will kill you if you can fight better than me good for you if you cnat because you are away, ???
- We need temporary respawn protection - The only thing I agree with, perhaps you should respawn in the Overland map then you can go wherever you want for safety or rejoin the fight

 

Well, currently I can heal only parrty members and not other PvPers:/ Basically the game assumes any PvP player is my enemy (even my friends and guildmates!) and does not allow me to help people.

I know who my friends are and I know who my enemies are, but it would be way easier if the game allowed me to mark/track friends and foes and assumed neutral status on people I did not encountered before (unless they are in same guild/faction or known criminals).

Well, I want you to have option to attack me, I just think that mindless killing in protected areas (e.g. cities) is silly and unrealistic without consequences. Cities should be safe to a degree and unless you have a very good reason to kill me, you should not do it. Also I think that attacking players just because they are OpenPvP is silly. I can understand killing for loot, or for revenge, or for many other reasons that make perfect sense in the game. That being said we need more reasons to PvP in game (fight over areas and resources). So far we can only hunt down PKs or PK and both without any consequences.

That could work and would be easier than relogging.

 

Sota is supposed to be an instanciated Online Experience eh?
How about being able to completely ignore people, like their avatar wouldnt even show up in your game anymore.
That way people could get rid really easy of griefers because lets face it, some people already grief the **** out of everyone and everything.

for me right now a big issue is zoning...

a blue griefer followed me and spoon for quite a few time through the map, i thought hes just curious about what we do, but suddenly 2 or 3 pvp flagged people zoned onto him and they ganked me way to many times. me and spoon had to abort the pve stuff actually... (and no im not whiny, getting killed like 10 times while you try to explain you are playing with a friend sucks)

 

Good feedback here !

Just add my 2 cents,

WE NEED LOOT IN PVP.

 

they said something about loot on the telethon...
as far as i understood regular pvp kills will let you chose 1 item to loot. the victim can either pay a system defined ransom or hand you the item, so youll either get gold or the item you wanted to get.

On guild wars they are thinking about more than 1 item to loot... but well they still just think about stuff like that

http://www.uoguide.com/Chaos

The concept of Chaos in Ultima Online was created by Lord Blackthorn the Deceiver as a counter to Lord British's system of Virtues. It stresses individuality and difference. Several in-game books describe the philosophy further.

In Ultima 5 Lord Blackthorn put up some Law's that kinda resemble the Virtues

• Honesty: Thou shalt not lie, or thou shalt lose thy tongue.
• Compassion: Thou shalt help those in need, or thou shalt suffer the same need.
• Valor: Thou shalt fight to the death if challenged, or thou shalt be banished as a coward.
• Justice: Thou shalt confess to thy crime and suffer its just punishment, or thou shalt be put to death.
• Sacrifice: Thou shalt donate half of thy income to charity, or thou shalt have no income.
• Honor: If thou dost lose thine own honour, thou shalt take thine own life.
• Spirituality: Thou shalt enforce the laws of virtue, or thou shalt die as a heretic.
• Humility: Thou shalt humble thyself to thy superiors, or thou shalt suffer their wrath.

What im trying to say is that Player Killers actually are virtuos, just on their own way
hell even gargoyles have their own virtues : http://wiki.ultimacodex.com/wiki/Gargish_Virtues

 

I will add another point.

- get rid of auto auto-attack!

Whenever I am in combat mode (to keep my glyphs ready) and I target someone upon using ability (e.g. mind lock to keep stacked glyphs stacked and ready) I am getting in auto attack mode. Whenever I target PvPer (to see their name at distance) I attack them!! I need to turn off auto attack every single time before targetting anyone. It is so annoying. I... do... not... want... to... fight... everyone!

 

@Net

Good post. What's a little frustrating to me is it seems like most of this is common sense, yet I don't see anyone really working on this. When the devs were asked details about pvp sieges in the recent developer hangout, they admitted that they hadn't really designed anything yet.

To me, pvp just stinks of lack of design on a whole. I think that's what the real problem is here. There's no over arching philosophy other than "it has to be consensual". This is NOT how to design pvp. In many ways it's just as bad as when the Darkfall developers said "open pvp everywhere and full loot". Well that's great, but the problem is more complex than that. "Fun" isn't as simple as saying consensual vs. non-consensual. We have to have REAL design that accounts for all the stuff we know is going to happen in the game.

I think because the developers are stretched so thin, they just haven't gotten around to developing the design of pvp and they probably have plans to do it "later" but with each release we run out of "later" time to spare. So I"m really worried at this point. I think PVP is going to be horrible because the devs are putting all their dev power into housing, crafting, quests, and 1000 other things.

They need to hire some more people.