Pack Animals

I'm pretty sure they know it's not going to pass. I've been reminding them about five times daily.

 

Never really understood why people look at houses, pack mules or anything else in the add on store as pay2win. Are they luxury items? Yes. Do they make gaming a little more convenient due to extra storage space or a more convenient place to craft? Sure. Do they help you advance in the game or help you become more powerful than other avatars? I doubt it.

If they were offering epic level armor or "The Sword of a Thousand Truths" in the store.. that would be pay to win. I don't view snowballs, sickles, fireworks and fishing poles as pay2win items.

 

"Is that a cria in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me..."

Hopefully the pack animals have to exist somewhere in the world either at a stable or a hitching post. It would feel rather awkward pulling an animal out of your backpack like it was a pokemon

 

Who cares? I just want that sweet llama carriying my enemies bodies.

 

There is a solid case to be made for suggesting that high value items like houses are P2W simply because they are high value items. No matter how you slice it, attainment of a house is one of the big goals a player can set for him- or herself in the multiplayer game, so being able to buy one can quite literally be interpreted as "pay to win." While some players might just use houses as storage or a distraction from the regular adventuring routine, for others the regular adventuring routine might be wholly purposed of acquiring a house. See?

 

As I understand it, there are a couple of definitions for "Pay to Win" floating around.

One is a term used to denote the ability to simply improve your in-game circumstances by using real-world money: A means to reduce or completely bypass the in-game time normally required to achieve the equivalent in-game element.

So yes, by that definition the sale of anything on the store that can be acquired via in-game means is essentially "Pay to Win". A player who wants a lot deed, but does not want to expend the in-game time necessary to achieve that lot can purchase such on the store.

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Another definition of "Pay to Win" is that one *must* pay in order to progress in the game: Due to either there being no equivalent element available via in-game means, or that the time necessary to attain the element is beyond any reasonable expectations of play.

Under that definition, and under the criteria that the developers are trust-worthy, I would say the add-on store is *not* "Pay to Win". Provided the developers keep to their word and make the in-game equivalent reasonably achievable, then it does not fit that particular definition.

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So, which definition are you all using ?

 

I get your point, Lord Trenc. I guess it all depends on what you feel is "winning" (I know Charlie Sheen, for example, had a very different definition of the word). If you've won the game by having a house to hang your hat in.. then I guess the store is pay to win.

I agree with Nraas though. Housing, crafting tools and pack mules (<--- added to stay on topic) may save you a little time and headaches in game.. but they're not mandatory for progressing and won't make any avatar more powerful than any other (which is my idea of "winning").

 

Since the game can't be won, "Pay to Win" is not applicable. Though I sense it has a more underlying meaning along the lines of "I can't afford that item".

 

Just my 2c worth: I would like to rebut the assertion that the game "can't be won".
Each game in the Ultima series had a quest. A long quest, which occupied the whole game. At the end of the game, you "succeeded" in your quest, and the game was over.
To my understanding, SotA will have a similar quest. Maybe a separate quest for each chapter?
Once this main quest is completed, the "adventurers" among us may consider the game "won".
In contrast to the series, that is not the end of the "game". A player can continue to live in the sandbox environment, accumulating items, experience, wealth, decorating their house etc and all the things that people loved to do in UO. You can do that forever.

So the question is - what defines "winning"? If it is the main quest - then no amount of nice house, fancy decorations, hot tubs, servants etc will help you solve that. The main quest involves just that - questing. A humble explorer is just as well equipped to complete this as is the Lord of the Manor. The game is NOT P2Win. (And as a side note; if you are the FIRST (or LAST) to solve the main quest, I guarantee that no-one will notice or care. They're having too much fun doing other stuff - or completing the quest in their own time)
If "winning" is having an awesome house, with stunning decorations, a servant, and all the accoutrements of wealth, then sure, it IS P2Win. My feeling is that if you are only interested in that, you are missing out on an awesome roleplaying, exploring and questing experience.

 

To me there is no difference between pay to win but when there is, it's pay to loose...

To assume there is a starting point and a winning point that is somehow unfair is so much crap!
At some point there comes a time when some person picks up a game to play and others are already playing the game and are well ahead of them in power and wealth.

I could care less if our store offers a ubersward of super duper ice cream flavor blood. If a player that has paid for such a sward enters our game, then yes they will be strong but as long as that same sward is obtainable in our game, then that's just one less thing for the internet/e-bay sweat shops in 3rd world countries to make a business out of.

We purchase a game to have fun in playing it. Should I then become jealous that the big bad NPC monster is so much more powerful and more wealthy than I am? "hell no"... so why should there be any difference if it's a computer controlled monster or a player controlled monster?... *psst* "there's actually no difference"...

OMG! What did the Time Lord Just say?!?!?!
I guarantee you that if you took the gloves off of the AI, "they are going to kick your A$$ets right off".
"But Time Lord, what if I'm a poor person in real life? How am I going to compete with that?"
As long as there are ways to play the game and obtain any pay to win item, then any player can go out into the world and find it through the challenge of the game because that's what games are for... "challenges"...

The line to cross in payments...
But::::::: There is a line to be crossed in the "Pay to Win" saga of reason and that is, that when we begin to see that super weapons are what are sold and not average to good weapons, then "it's time for those purchased items not to be blessed and non-lootable"

As I see it, there are no Super Weapons yet sold in our store so there's no need to panic yet...
Not even close to it
~Time Lord~

 

Once a bonus is added to a shop item then it becomes P2W.
You can start the game on day one with added skills that anyone that hasn't paid does not have.
The excuse that you can get it later in game is just to make the P2W group feel they are not cheats.
How many hours play to gather the materials & train the crafting skill to make an item with the added bonus on just a prosperity tool.

 

How

How is that any different to paying someone in Asia to farm gold for you or paying them to level your character? Players willing to throw money at SotA will always be able to P2W if they want to, the Devs can't help that. It's no different to any other game be that WoW or UO, at least this way the Devs get the money and we all get to benefit from the extra features it pays for.

 

That's up to the Developer's to stop.
But most games now have a shop so they have joined the Asian Gold farming Club.
If there's money to be made they will sell you anything.

 

Yep, A Big Reality...
~Time Lord~

 

You don't start the game on day one with added skills that anyone that hasn't paid does not have. Your arguments lack facts. It's not a good way to persuade people to your line of thinking. We all start at 0 skills. We really don't know yet what items new players will start with, what they'll have access to right away. If they have access to easily obtainable crafting and gathering items they can easily pull ahead of someone who bought the add on store versions either by knowing better harvest points, better ways to raise crafting, or simply having more time.
Your last line seems to be asking how long will it take to make an item similar to the prosperity tool? Based on the pre-alpha testing it's simple to make a crafting tool, not time consuming at all, the issue is the bonuses, which we don't know how that is applied yet, is it through the Enhance tree of the crafting tree? or is it Alchemists that enchant the item with that property? Unknown. How much does that bonus affect our crafting/gathering results? Unknown. So you are making an argument about something nobody knows at this time, except the developers have an idea of how difficult/time consuming they want to make that an dhow big of a bonus. I believe the bonuses wont be a big deal. Also, they said you can make even better items in game, so if you buy these you still wont have the best, you still wont be winning.

The Pack Animals are purely cosmetic differences from what you can get in game. It doesn't help anyone other than saving them either the gold or time it takes to get one in-game. If I buy an ethereal mount in UO, I certainly didn't pay to win there, they are relatively simple and inexpensive to get in game, it's just more convenient. It took me quite awhile to get one, and even when I did, I ended up using nightmares instead.

You simply don't seem to like add-on stores. Well, this game will have the add-on store, they wont sell items you need to win in pvp or pve or crafting or roleplaying, or questing. So I don't see how it can be P2win, I've played p2win games, you simply can't realistically get the items in game you need to win in pvp, you have to buy add-on store items, (King's Bounty: Legions requires $1200 to win in pvp) it sucks. This game isn't like that.

On Day one, even though I'm a Lord level pledge with add-on store and stretch goal items, I can and likely will lose in pvp, even a 1 on 1 duel. But I have full starting armors and weapons etc. yeah.. STARTING items, anyone who plays through the night, once I wake up in the morning they are ahead of me and have better than starting items, and better skills. This is how every MMO for me works, people who have more time pull ahead, and have more than me. Even with my pledge I expect many people will be ahead of me without spending $1 in the addon store or pledge rewards. And not because they spent 10x as much time as I did, but because they spent an extra 1-2 hours each day in the game.

 

Eh, that looks more like your average Asian Internet Cafe then a sweatshop...

 

I don't actually think there is a sweat shop style anywhere. Most are kids just addicted to gaming that form gangs which sell their gains on e-bay to pay for more internet gaming time or whatever. The media would hype such things as sweat shops and possibly there are in India or China, but I haven't seen one of those here in Thailand yet. I've only seen the "gangs" that direct their following into the games and then use those funds for whatever the gang boss wanted.
~Time Lord~

 

WoW isn't p2w because gold really doesn't buy you anything. Grind doesn't really buy you anything either. These things may get you in the top 50% of players but beyond that, you actually have to do things which are difficult. And you need to do new difficult things every couple of months so that buying an account only does you so much good. Your PvP stats and gear come from earning and maintaining a high arena rank throughout the season. This is competitive in much the same way as LoL. (Other than the fact that early wins in the season tend to snowball success as your gear carries over.) Your PvE stats and gear come from being among the first to do the big, new, challenging raids. You can get carried through a good team later, but in the early months everyone needs their A game.

And this is true of games in general.
You can't buy PvP because, if you're bad, you'll lose king of the hill and your rankings slip.
You can't buy PvE because there's always new content.
And you can't buy crafting/RP because these things are inherently social and reputation driven.

While it's possible SotA screws all of this up, the right way to do things is pretty well established from dozens of other games. It's why you cannot have some universal "gold" currency which just trades everything around, or it surely does become p2w.

 

I agree with you 100% it is a convenience thing over P2W, I feel as though many people just like to complain and have have no solution. Pack animals and housing don't make your player a god. Unless you are going to run a brothel then maybe you might be a god someday

 

The guys in the "sweat shops" offering these services do it all day for a living and they are good, they can certainly get your rankings up or run PvE raids for you. I've seen advertisements for just that, like pay $$$ to get your character up to certain PvP rank. Ultimately there is no way of preventing people paying someone to play your character for you.