PaxLair Player Owned Town Scene Design and Test

Discussion in 'Player Owned Towns' started by Winfield, Mar 31, 2015.

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  1. Miracle Dragon

    Miracle Dragon Legend of the Hearth

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    I don't think a river can be added to a flat map.. that would take significant altering of the terrain. And I don't think assets can be added to the template after the fact. (unless there's a simple request that doesn't take man-hours to complete), the only mentioned adjustments to the template are: Biome, lot placement (within pre-determined 'spaces), and which NPC buildings go in by the designated 'town square'. no altering of roads and other assets was ever mentioned, because that would take a significant amount of time which they don't have.

    I guess I'm just a little confused by this suggestion.
     
  2. jiirc

    jiirc Avatar

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    It easy to
    It easy to say that this works for me. So Say someone wants 1 castle lot and breaks it up into four village lots. According to your scenario we erase the other lots and start placing roads over the lots. Now the artist has to go in and texture those roads, blend them into the surrounding environment so they look natural, because people will scream if they don't look natural, and all the other things they need to do to make the scene acceptable because of the changes. Now they no longer have a template because the next person wants to use those lot areas that the artist just changed. So now the artist needs to spend time 'customizing' roads and areas for the next person as well. If the roads are fixed into the original template and become unmovable, the artist doesn't need to get involved. It's a necessary trade off to get the POTS completed in game in a reasonable amount of time and cost. You can have it fast and cheap. You can have it fast and good.. But you can't have it fast, good, and cheap.
     
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  3. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    I'm confused by the template limitations. They seem to be WAY too narrow. Instead of creating a SYSTEM, or METHODOLOGY, we've created a PROCESS that is driven by a few people with a focus on "what do we want, and how can others reuse that?" I'm not pointing my finger at anyone (I'm not), I'm simply saying we can do much better.

    The image I posted is a CONCEPT, and requires you to think outside the box. So if a river has to be hard coded into the landscape (and I don't see a dev quote where that's been established) then ok, how can we keep the spirit of the "template" being flexible without every single template having a river in the same place? I would suggest that we need templates that can be rotated, and massaged more easily than say having the "PaxLair" template on the first page.

    Honest feedback here. That's not a template, it's PaxLair. PaxLair (I think rightfully so) is getting what amounts to an extremely expensive custom scene, for free. Again, well deserved, but we can't pretend that's a template for anything. It's PaxLair. Anyone using that "template", if we assume roads and rivers can't change, is just living in the shadow of PaxLair. I'm not trying to derail the thread and I'd be happy to have this conversation privately or in another thread. But I can't see where having "templates" created by a few people (even collectively) is going to result in towns looking different.

    Kingsport to Solania may work this way, but it appears (at least to me) that those two towns have had some work done to them that changes the geography ever so slightly, and certainly enough to make people think they are not the same exact town layout.
     
  4. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    What I dislike most about conversations like this is how people only look at the picture and often (too often) fail to understand the concept (in full). I'll post more after I've created more pictures for people to look at.
     
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  5. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    So if we're being smart here, and let's be smart here....

    The FIRST template looks like this:
    [​IMG]

    The SECOND template looks like this maybe:
    [​IMG]
    The THIRD template might look like this:
    [​IMG]
    And so on.

    Instead of making the final PAXLAIR template...why the HELL are we not making layered versions that can be used and reused giving more people more options? Does that make sense?
     
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  6. Themo Lock

    Themo Lock Avatar

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    You kind of answered your own question though, those are 3 different templates. We don't yet know the level of adjustments that will be available to us once we get to the point of making design choices for our own towns. That wasn't really the discussion we were trying to have here, this was more about collaboration on the base template designs.
     
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  7. Gaelis

    Gaelis Avatar

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    Can't see someone stoping players from making templates which can be approved from Devs..... and I can't see many people making templates in cooperation with other PoT-Owners.
     
  8. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    They're three different templates but they're all on the same path the artist would logically take during the creation of the scene - I assume. Dev feedback here would be appreciated. It seems like just creating a base template and then reusing that for let's say 50 towns is selling ourselves short if the only thing we can adjust is lots (within their predetermined areas), biome, and town square. It seems like we could make a layered approach that would not strain resources yet give people valuable options like "I don't want that river in my scene but everything else is fine".

    Does that make sense? Sorry for having this discussion here, but I was originally responding to the limitations you posted in this thread. I agree this conversation should've taken place in another thread. Sorry for derailing this thread that wasn't my intention.
     
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  9. Themo Lock

    Themo Lock Avatar

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    Well its not that far off topic, as you say though.. would require a developer to fully explain it.
     
  10. Blake Blackstone

    Blake Blackstone Avatar

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    I know squat about unity but i do know there is a terrain builder called L3DT that can make a topography that can then be pulled into unity. I like Drocis' thoughts on this just simply bc it is a different thought pattern on what we have going. Themo you are doing a great job too getting templates churned out. I am happy to see that there is a real conversation going on concerning this topic finally.

    Would we do better moving this away from the PaxLair R17 test thread and moving back into:

    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...wned-towns-templates.20067/page-4#post-350126

    I see people have started to post over here and it would be nice to keep the thought pattern in one spot to cut down on confusion.
     
  11. jiirc

    jiirc Avatar

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    They do use L3DT, and if I remember their workflow, it would be used to get a general shape to the terrain. This would be equivalent to geeting the frame, walls, and general features of a house built. The time factor explodeswhen you start 'decoraitng' the scene with things like rocks, trees, waterfalls, lakes, etc. While these can just be plopped in, they don't make for a highly visual scene. The time, and a result money and delays in delivery, comes when the artist starts sculpting the scene ti enhance its visual appeal. The area around trees gets blended with the surrounding gorund textures. The same with rocks. Placing grass or flowers or sand or other textures in the right places. Traffic flow thorugh the scene needs to be checked and validated. L3DT can't do those things, they need to be done by hand. Of if they can be automated, they will likely need massaging.
     
  12. Jatvardur

    Jatvardur Avatar

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    +1 for Drocis's idea. The spirit of it makes sense that we have something modular, and if I take his meaning correctly that they would be less well defined than they currently are.


    Attention! (please :) )

    Returning to a previous issue....

    Something which I feel is more pertinent is the zoning of lots in templates. If the devs only zone city lots and leave us (pot owners) to divide them up into the correct allocation then they must over-allocate the zoning of city lots to each template. The over-allocation of zoning would not over-ride the allotted amount of actual lot space (sq. m.) permissible to that town type (implement via a check). This is necessary due to the inherent waste: city lots cannot allow for row lots without wastage, and several city lots back-to-back (contiguously) will create a lot more wastage. Given the potential for waste many towns could fall far short of their intended town size: id est, severe disappointment for towns that have already accepted applications and may now be over-subscribed.

    A better option would be to zone town lots instead, and not to make them all contiguous in a square (although end-to-end (long-side) would be fine).


    Simple examples
    1 Castle lot = 8x Town (no waste).
    1 Keep lot = 4x Town (no waste).
    1 City = 2x Town (no waste).

    1 Town = 2x Village (no waste).
    1 Town = 8x Row (no waste).

    Obviously if the city lots (as they are) are just swapped straight for 2x the number of town lots then it won't work for all lot sizes. Need to be mindful of where the lots meet each other: city lots don't allow for row lots without waste.

    Recall my sketch:
    [​IMG]
     
  13. Blake Blackstone

    Blake Blackstone Avatar

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    Town lots would allow for much more customization. It is still large enough that there wouldn't need to be a million of them.
     
  14. Gubbles

    Gubbles Avatar

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    How about other zones that don't support lots already? I like the idea of using a zone like Brightbone Pass, or Blackblade Pass as the starting template.
     
  15. Winfield

    Winfield Legend of the Hearth

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    Good question, and I have added that to my list of questions for the designers. I hope to have more answers on things by the end of this coming week.

    Since this is a test of the PoT design mechanics and process, it makes a bit of sense we don't have all the answers to many things yet -- neither do the Devs. Which is why this is being tested now. After the R17 roll-out, there should be more information and answers I would think. So for now, we gather questions, ask them, and see what answers come back (possibly not until next month).

    I will certainly share all I can and my impressions of how things are going. Keep the questions coming!
     
  16. Miracle Dragon

    Miracle Dragon Legend of the Hearth

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    I believe I read reusing non-town scenes was also possible, though the flat spaces for housing may not be implemented in those scenes, so they would still take some work. But yes, we need mountain villages! ;-)
     
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  17. Gubbles

    Gubbles Avatar

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    Yes, exactly my intent. I really want to see moderately to densely populated cliff towns, with drops high enough to be deadly :) If Brightbone Pass could be flattened and extended some at the top and water added at the base of the cliff, this would be the POT I would like to build.

    @Winfield, thanks! I really appreciate it!
     
  18. Sindariya

    Sindariya Avatar

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    I have 2 questions and hope to get an answer:

    Regarding biome and rivers in the templates: Have the templates fits 100% the region on the overland map or can we ahve a river even if the town is not located next to a river? Same goes biome: can we have forest if the overland map shows only grass land?

    The second is only indirect belonging to town design but it was a question in our town. We want to make a keep lot into a big biergarten, but if it will keep the walls it would destroy the town scene to put in in the center of a town. So will these keep and castle lot walls be optional for the lot owner? Else we have to put those poor people on the outside of the town
     
  19. Katrina Bekers

    Katrina Bekers Localization Team

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    My understanding is that you decide a theme/biome/water features for your POT, and devs will pick a place (or many places you can choose from) on the map that satisfies those features.
     
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  20. Sindariya

    Sindariya Avatar

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    I understood it more, that you can point on a place and they place you around that spot regarding there streets and underlaying hexes, which you can't see anymore. Because after your understanding they could place you somewhere on the map.
     
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