Pay to Train

I'm continuing this topic from another thread, because it's a separate topic from the one Darkstarr started, on how they are giving us $1000 gold per level to allocate skills.

It was a sincere question. Why are we paying to train?

Majoria said we've always had to pay to train in Shroud. I don't recall paying to train....did it take my money and I didn't notice? Because honestly I never even noticed. lol

I have never had to pay money to train in other games I play. Leveling was automatic, and based on what skills you used sometimes. We are training by fighting, gathering, crafting, etc. Why should we even have a trainer to pay or need to allocate what we're putting points into? I would like some logical arguments or reasons.

How is it possible that one NPC each, in select towns, can "train" for every conceivable skill? Maybe "realism" is an argument - but in that case, you'd need specific skill trainers in every discipline (I've seen that in UO or other games, but there were no skill points to allocate). Not just one NPC per town.

In other games I've played, the only cost has been respecing (understandably). I mean, I'm trying to make sense of it. Typically, gaining XP points, having put in money to buy tools, weapons, etc, is the most logical way to gain XP towards skills. I don't understand why we can't allocate our own points, or the thing we're doing automatically put points in those skills.

Usually games are one or the other - pay trainers in the discipline you want, or earn points in skills you're already using. But not both.

 

There is no context if we only pay for training though. I'd think they'd want context - if you aren't trying to use a skill in the game, like bludgeoning, you shouldn't be able to train (paying money) to do it. Actual experience should gain the skill, otherwise it will turn into what you said previously: "It will end up a situation between the *haves* (those who pledged high enough to have several free suits of armor/weapons - of which I am one) and the *havenots*"

I can understand, to some level, that paying for training could make sense. Another hurdle. I just don't remember having to do that in any other game I've played. For example, in UO, you could pay a skill trainer (that was specialized in only one skill) to get started. But once you got 25-30 points (or so) in that skill, you were on your own to earn the rest by actual experience doing it.

It's not free to train this way. You have to put in the time or spend gold on resources, to gain skill. With every level of gaining skill, it gets harder and takes more time. That makes sense too.

 

I understand your questions and don't have a comprehensive response, though I am inclined to like the limitations levied by the new system.

Perhaps more old school in that certain locations were home to specific specialized trainers. You'd find yourself having to travel to neighboring towns or distant cities to seek out the tutalidge of a renown expert or attend a famed academy in order to turn the raw experience you've gained into disciplined skill sets. And since trainers have to put food on the table too...at a cost.

I homestly despise respecing even at cost. Commit and move forward in your character's development...for better or worse. There's nothing realistic about respecing in any sense. It's honestly lazy and caters to those who can't live with their own decisions. That being said, I totally get that I'm probably in the minority with that opinion. Even though it doesn't sound like it, I do respect others feelings on the matter.

At the end of the day, it may be more about gold-sink than anything else. Without much effort, I already have more cash on hand than I need. It might be a nice compromise (and opportunity down the road) if players who fully master a skill tree could then in turn train others in those skills at will.

 

I am curious if they'll be selling gold in the Add-On store.

 

Just as an aside, there will be lots of things that will no longer be free, 100% successful, instant, etc. As they balance the game, they will turn on the dials that have been left at zero. Paying for training is just one dial. There will be many, many, many, many more such dials, so don't take for granted anything in the "game" currently.

Yeah, I'd like a lore-friendly answer too. Sure, we can make up reasons: the trainers are scumbags and only care for money; they must pay some scumbag Lord / King / etc. for all services rendered...just as all vendors have to pay a tax for their servcies/transactions. Etc.

They've already said there will be specialized NPC skill trainers. What we have now was simply the first iteration. I'd imagine they could have many skill trainers per skill tree / tier. Just a matter of time/effort to put that in the game and balance it, in terms of number of trainers, location, accessibility, etc. See my first point above: initially one NPC trainer for everyone/everything, and free. Perhaps at launch, a hundered trainers just for Gathering, spread across the world, at varying costs, and perhaps even some will require you to perform a lengthy globe-trotting multi-part quest just to unlock it.

 

LOL yes I can see it if clicking on a skill to be it, you get a note that says no, no you cannot have that skill it could be a danger to you or others. Playing with fire before you have fire mastery is dangerous. Then perhaps you must figure it out. Trying to cast fire before you know how could be very comical also. I would say there is a lot of possibility to deepen the experience as with many areas of the game.

 

The devs have said that in the future any given trainer won't be able to train you in every skill, and that for high tier-skills, like summoning an elemental, there'll be a specialized trainer specially for that, who might even require you to do a quest for them.

Personally, I hope they get really serious about this. Despite what I've said, they've suggested, for instance, that there might be a trainer that offers all 1st tier skills. I really hope they break that down that between fighting trainers and magic trainers, and maybe even further, so you have a variety of different crafting trainers - so not every trainer knows every crafting skill - and maybe divide between heavy armor trainers and light armor trainers, etc., that teach different subsets of skills. They could even make NPC craftsmen do the training, or their assistants, so its not difficult to do. For instance, a blacksmith who is a merchant could also offer training in blacksmithy, or have someone who works at their shop do that.

 

Medieval Facebook, here we come.

Is there any challenge in this game that will remain sacred? I seriously need to make a free to play MMO called Convenience Grind. Here's the key features:

- Don't like your running speed? CG lets you change it on the fly!
- CG let's you be the hero in your own world regardless of other player accomplishments. If you haven't played for 10 months, just turn on CG and you will instantly be ranked #1 in whatever area you view.
- CG gives you a button to become super rich!
- CG allows you start the game super powerful!
- Quest puzzles and maps are never hidden from you. Just click the "fun" button and you'll instantly achieve whatever goal you seek.
- CG pays you gold to train, fight, craft. Even when you're not playing CG is filling your bank account with gold! Right now during development your bank account is exponentially getting larger thanks to our patented "Endless Gold" Technology!
- CG not only has auto-attack, it has auto-resolution. No player in CG has ever lost a battle!
- CG doesn't have a death system, because that would not be fun. Instead, CG has a Life system and cradles your character at any point where you might go below zero hit points. No player has ever died in CG!
- CG has no add-on store or "cash shop" because that would be pay 2 win.

Now at this point, you might be asking yourself some very important questions like:

If you don't have a "cash shop" and you're free to play, how do you make money? The answer is, we don't. We are independently wealthy and enjoy throwing our money away in strange ways. In this case, we decided to make Convenience Grind for the 10's of players that would actually spend time chatting in this game while their avatars "do stuff" that requires no challenge and no player skill.
Why should I play a game that doesn't challenge me in any way? The answer is simple, you shouldn't. But if you're still here reading this, then CG is for YOU!

 

If it makes any difference, I seem to recall that the older Ultima games, like Ultima 1 through 6, had training centers (I think there was a fighter guild and a mage guild or such) where once one had leveled up, then you could pay to increase abilities. But I could have that mixed up with any number of games from back in the middle ages.

I do admit that I love the Elder Scrolls method where using a basic skill increases that basic skill. There was a disconnect since you also got a point per level to increase some finer point of a basic skill, but it wasn't tied to anything you had done.

 

You're kind of talking down to Caliya, don't think she deserves it.

I agree with you in spirit though: unless there's a good reason not to, I think the devs should make decisions that comport with role-playing over everything else. Although Caliya is right; if they're going to do it, they need to do that across the board, and think very closely about what NPCs are training what.

Ultima VII and Serpent's Isle had that, but I don't remember it in earlier Ultimas. In earlier Ultimas, you just increased your stats by meditating at shrines or doing quests for the Codex of Ultimate Wisdom.

 

That's not my intent. I'm kind of talking down to the idea (which is not at all unique to Caliya) that any time we have to pay for something be it time, money, skill, there should be an easier non-challenging way to accomplish the same goal. I think what I posted shows my point of view very well and it's in no way meant to insult or belittle any individual poster. It is however meant to show the absurdity of the idea in the OP.

 

Well let me see.. I've only casually skimmed over the thread so far but I see most of the major points from the OP are covered. Let me see if I can't address the rest.. though.

As mentioned earlier.. skill trainers are not new to Ultima. Though previously they were limited to stats. In terms of lore, I'm a little surprised there needs any explanation for skill training. In concept at least it really is no different than taking a class. You don't for example.. expect to teach yourself kung-fu. You find someone who already knows it to train you.

There is a perception problem here though.. as there's that disconnect between skill and XP by way of generic skill points. It doesn't really feel natural.

From my perspective there are two major reasons why we have the current system. 1: is the current combat system with glyphs.. it's rather system in that you first unlock the glyph/skill.. and then you 'train' to have more available. It's very digital and easy to manage. 2: It's easier to balance than an XP per skill (ie UO-like skills). Devs have said so previously it's easier to balance than having learning curves and such.

What I have suggested in the past is a hybrid system. Which I still kind of like. The idea was building off the current system but also allow for skill gain through use.

 

You're right, in that it's not realistic. However, people make mistakes. Nearly every game I've played, I later discover what was a waste of time to put points into. For example, in UO, we had Spirit Speak and Tracking. In the beginning, they were fun or useful skills, but they were pretty nerfed and those points sat there unused. In that case, it wasn't the person's fault for putting points in. It was the developer's fault for nerfing those skills.

So in Elderscrolls Online, when they nerf or change a skill, they reset your points automatically, and you can re-allocate them free. But once you've set them, you have to pay to change them.

I also understand the argument that we have to live with the consequences, but like we see in every game, sometimes the application of a skill is not what we anticipated because the dev team didn't balance it correctly. Should players pay the consequences of bad design?

 

Though honestly, I think skill caps, whether hard caps or soft caps, are unrealistic. In real life, if you spend the time and energy, you can master many skills, and you can do it quickly, because learning skills is often less about practice over and over, and more about grasping the fundamentals -- getting a knack for what you're doing.

So that's why I'm not too bothered about respeccing from a perspective of realism.

 

You are not alone in your thinking. We should take the time to make the choices that matter in character development.

 

I also hate the idea of respec. I've ranted and railed on that quite a bit in the past.. which is another reason I came up with the hybrid idea as it allows for skill decay. If you made a 'mistake' in your training you could simply allow it to decay through non-use.

 

Yet another reason for my hybrid idea.

 

another +1!

 

Well, I tried to include your post here, but the bbcode is goofed, so @Ravicus Domdred here was my response:

I very much disagree, with all due respect. If they are considering selling gold in their store, it would make these skills purchasable with out of game money. It seems odd tying the skill upgrade to an in game dollar figure, almost like it doesn't fit how the world is looked at otherwise. Maybe the reason one is paying for skills is so that if one can't pay in game, it gives them a reason to pay for gold out of game.

Just a thought.