Pay to win

Discussion in 'Archived Topics' started by Cj_2, Feb 7, 2015.

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  1. Moiseyev Trueden

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    As the bank slot limitation hasn't been put into effect yet, I am curious if you are just opening up a genuine concern (I agree that the balance is not there even remotely) or if you have actually counted how many items you have in the bank and are actually pushing a 200 item cap (and are being serious as opposed to inflammatory). The devs have mentioned that they are likely to adjust it, and I'm hoping the threads on this are being read to see how quick the backlash is. I'm also concerned if it is a global cap (completely unfair to those who don't pledge) or a local cap by city (hard but not unfair as such), which makes more sense with local bank slots already implemented (as opposed to everything accessible from all banks).

    Also, the ability to increase by in game means (i.e. gold or some of the ideas in the other thread) makes this something to strive for (like Majoria mentioned in regards to her Row house last release) more than a complete imbalance. I also don't think storage space is a win requirement (in regards to P2W), but if you are a hoarder and collector then you probably have a different view than I in this regard.
     
  2. Noctiflora

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    Simpler and more elegant solution to that is to make pledge items not count towards the bank limit at first, and let everyone start out equal with the same bank limit, rather than spend time devising a system that most people who aren't in the highest pledge tiers will think is unfair. :)
     
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  3. Willowhawk

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    I had the same concerns at first Muffin Man, but the more I look at the game the more I believe that by release time these things will all be in balance. In other words, I believe that when SOTA is launched, everyone will be able to do everything including own a home. Having a few perks like extra bank storage to me is irrelevant since I can make a ton of storage containers for in my house.

    The only difference will be we will need to work in game for our home appose to buying a home, and I do not mind this in the least since that is part of the game.

    Having said that, my concern would be; how hard will that be do accomplish? Because as I see it now, owning a home is really a major attraction to the game, and it pretty much eliminates the need for a bank since we can store everything there, as well we get a port to our home making it even more convenient than the banks. :)
     
  4. Lord Baldrith

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    Or make everyone equal...why should bank space be based on your pledge level? The higher tiers already have housing...so that alone makes space much less of a problem.
     
  5. Tahru

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    I almost agree with you, except for the "at first" part because a pledge rewards and addon-store purchases should never have to be deleted to make space. Instead the pledge rewards and add-on item storage should be handled through a separate limitless vault at the bank or something like that. Then start everyone with the same bank space.
     
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  6. Sold and gone

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    What happens if you want to move to another lot and need to bank your items. Or that if you want to change your lot appearance for festivities or what not? how are you supposed to store your pledge items?
     
  7. Noctiflora

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    Good point and I would like this even better.
     
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  8. Lord Baldrith

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    What's that have to do with it? When I suggest making everyone equal...I mean making everyone start at the highest number not the low number :)
     
  9. Blake Blackstone

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    What is there to win?
     
  10. licemeat

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    Perfect answer IMO.
     
  11. Stryker Sparhawk

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    Correct me if I am wrong, but are they not going to possibly roll the lot storage into a "package" where all items placed on the lot become one inventory item and can be rolled out as it was onto the new lot?
     
  12. Sold and gone

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    if you are moving to another lot, I believe the magic movers they called it one time, would be your bank now. In addition, what happens if you wanted to clear your lot and put only one chair on it. Where would all the items be, in addition to all the stuff gathered in game like mats and what not. This is an invented problem and it has everyone riled up for what reason? We already know that upper level pledges will get more goodies in game. Be it storage by house or storage by bank they have more storage and why should you care if it is one way or another?
     
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  13. Ristra

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    I imagine most of us have been playing online games for a long time. The pay to win model has caught many of us and I am sure none of us want to be in that mess.

    The first I can remember was health potions being sold in the game store and they had no usage limit. You could spam heal with pots. Practically killed the game.

    When I think of pay to win it's only IF you pay then you CAN win. When I can make health pots in game and spam them just as well as that person that purchased them from the online store. I have to laugh and I would probably push them to break their wallet. - they paid to lose.

    For the case of SotA, things like prosperity tools. These can be seen as an advantage but similar tools can be acquired in game. Better tools can be acquired and that removes them from the pay to win model.

    Looking at bank space, if it's tied to the account level. I may start out with 100 slots and someone else may start with 1000. IF in game I can work to have that 1000 and even take it to 2000 then all forms of pay are cycled to a line behind what is considered win.

    My account level gives me 100 I have 2000 because I worked for it in game. The LotM has 1000 and still has 1000. The LotM payed to stand still and I am winning with paying for 100.

    To be Pay to Win the success/reward/access must only be obtainable from paying.
     
  14. Dirk Hammerstrike

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    Hey don't get me wrong they got a few bucks from me and they'll get more. Alas I'm not within the realm of disposable income to afford a castle or anything... but I pledged Explorer. I'm in it for the long haul.

    I would like everyone to consider that without the money, there is no game. I'm a firm believer in this development model, where folks who contributed early on, and to a larger extent financially, get benefits. I do worry about the balance. The upper financial contributions tiers are so large they cannot seem to help but either make imbalance or eventually some upset large contributors. I hope it's sorted out and I'm confident that it will be over time. MMOs are constantly running the narrow edge to keep everyone happy, regardless of the financing model.

    And of course there is the flip side to all of this... which maybe I shouldn't mention? but well... I kinda feel bad for the folks paying cash for everything handed to them. A game is exciting to me at least partially because of the satisfaction I get from virtual achievements. If I have a lot, a house, all the ultimate tools, etc... from day 1, a good deal of the satisfaction of achieving those things are lost to me. Granted some folks don't care about these things. They're into the story, social interaction, etc. They'd rather just kick in a few (or many) bucks to have it and be done. Regardless of why they do it, I'm grateful to those that do! It helps pay for the game I've been really enjoying.

    I may not have my lot in Braemar or Owl's Head. But thats cool. I think we'll find the ebb and flow of the game as people quest and play will make different areas compelling at different times. For example, as Ep 1 matures, I wonder sometimes if the Ardoris row houses will end up being the most valuable given the population density.

    Just a few things to think about. I do hope my earlier comment didn't actually scare anyone from pledging. =( We need both $ and people to make this a really sustainable place to play.
     
  15. redfish

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    As long as the high pledgers are interested in adding to the community and the overall the feel of the game, I'm not sure I mind. I know a lot of the early backers are role-players, and will be opening up all sorts of interesting shops and guilds.

    I'd mainly be worried if the high pledgers were gold farmers, who really didn't care about the well-being of the game at all.

    Though, I am hoping they make sure that everyone has a chance to get want they want out of playing, and expand the housing appropriately when its needed.
     
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  16. Edward Newgate

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    I dont think its buy to win.
    Let me tell you wy in my personal oppinon it is not.

    Some peaple dont want / cant spent so much money to get all that cool houses and tax free lots. So to get a bigger bank space helps alot to store there items.
    WIth a house you can store them into chests.

    They get the bonus with out have to spent so much money is a cool way to do it.

    I spent 600$ to get to Edelmann, not for the stuff i would get (still my own bear is cool but i would never do that for such nonsens) i did it cous i belive in this great game and the devs behind it.

    I never spent so much money on a game. but i did it with no regreats.

    The only thing i dont like, i realy dont like are the seprated streath goals thats litlte bit off. from my 600$ there should be go some money into it in some way (like 20% to the goal)

    Maby i could help you to see it little bit different.
     
  17. Drocis the Devious

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    I think that's a fair analysis.

    Prosperity Items
    Housing
    Pledge Rewards

    There are significant advantages to all of them. I know that's why I purchased them. I wanted a great big house and I didn't want to worry about not having one, so I paid a lot of money to ensure that I did. I don't want to have to repair all my crafting tools over and over again so I bought all the Prosperity Items. I didn't want to be inconvenienced by taxable housing so I pledged to get a tax free lot.

    Again, all of these things give me the "advantage" of convenience as well as some logistical support that I wouldn't have if I didn't pledge so high.

    But define winning. What am I winning exactly? I know I'm risking a lot by paying so much money into a game that isn't even out of pre-alpha yet. I know I'm paying a lot for the convenience of things that are generally available in-game for "free". I know I'm putting a lot of eggs in this basket while other people are just hanging around waiting to play the same game for as low as $20.

    I have to tell you The Muffin Man, the OP comes off as a bit naive to me. The game has to be funded somehow. I'd say the devs did a pretty darn good job giving people an opportunity to pledge for things they care about while still giving players with less means or less motivation the opportunity to substitute time for money. That opportunity doesn't exist in true pay to win environments. If a game is truly pay to win, you can't get anything of value without paying for it in cold hard cash.

    Btw, Lord Andernutt isn't just good, he's the best. And if you decide the game isn't for you, then he can help you find someone that thinks it's for them. Best of luck to you.
     
  18. Tahru

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    + 5099 to both above posts
     
  19. Themo Lock

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    What investment? Any post along the lines of "do what i want or i quit" is not going to be received well by anybody.
     
  20. Deathblow

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    I understand the feelings of the Op and and maybe even read the thoughts of his brother, if that is the post being quickly wiped from the forum this morning. I whole- heartedly agree with Lord Baldrith, the Bank Box should not be tinkered or tampered
    changed in any way and remain equal to all players.

    To call the disparage in investor pledge levels, a reward in regards to the bank box slots, is an overstatement. Its not a plus, its a take-away. This sort of thing (linear thinking) to trickle down and seep into the gaming culture, is all it might take for future interest in SotA not to take place. As Community we need folks to take a second look, not chase away the first time peekers.

    If SotA needs more cash flow, put horses and boats on the SotA store shelves. You can't sell what you don't have. This may require more commitment from silent investors, much the same way this Community has invested, through belief in the project.
     
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