PK´s are not a Pattern - the true reason they are unwelcome in MMO

Hello all.

To understand this Thread please look first at the link below, else you will not get the source of my threat and therefore are unable to really participate in it as you do not understand it.

http://www.theoryoffun.com/theoryoffun.pdf

After reading i did feel like understanding a new big chunk of why so many games implend mechanics to reduce the influence other Players could have on others within a Game.

I will quote some of his sentences and relate it to PK´s from the Ultima Online time.

When you are playing a game you only play it until you mastered the pattern. Once you mastered it , the game becomes boring.

My conlcusion:

What does this mean in regards to PK´s or other Players who can inlfuence you:

They are , and have always been an "unpredictable pattern" - hense a security for a Game not to become boring.

Players seeking to advance in a game will always try to optimize what they are doing.
They will try to make the gameplay predictable as possible.
If they are clever and see an optimal path—an Alexandrine solution to a Gordian problem—they’ll do that instead of the “intended gameplay.
Which then means it becomes boring, and not fun. In the real world, we call this “security” and “steady jobs” and “sensible shoes” and “routine.”
Call it a treadmill, if you want.

My conclusion:
PK´s, or other Players ability to influence are unpredicatable, and a uncalculatable Pattern - This means they
avoid players creating boring routines, the avoid creating a "secure" and "steady" and a "routine".

Hense the PK helps the Game Developers on the fight against Players trying to make a game repetive and boring because of the habbits they have.


Well basically i am runing out of time.

But the conclusion i got is that most players do not like PK because they disturb them in trying to play a game that is predicatable , and provide them the option to control the game and that leading at the end when they have achieved this for the game to become boring.

So the end result for me is: I think the true gamers are the ones who understand that a Game stays fun as long as you tolerate the unpredictable options in a game.

Hense: Players Freedom to influence your own freedom might make a game hard, but also makes a Game more long lasting and fun as you can´t create a pattern.


Hope you all get my thinking.


Myrcello.

 

I agree 100%.

When I agree, people assume I'm a PK, but I'm not, and pretty much have only PK'd maybe 3 players in the past 18 years, and have killed PK's trying to kill me about 100+ times in the past 18 years. Being attacked by PK's is fun to me, I enjoy the random pattern, I enjoy the unpredictable-ness of it all because I do look at the end-game, and the end-game is, if you're logging in, doing the same thing and logging out it starts to feel like a job, and becomes un-fun very fast. Only when encountered by intelligent opposition which has never been an NPC, is the game worth playing in the long run.

Like Chris Roberts says, the toughest Boss-Monster he's ever encountered was another player, it has never been an NPC. Like Chris I enjoy to be challenged, Chris goes on to say the greater the challenge brings the greater reward.

Here's the video of Chris Roberts talking about PVP...



Just ignore my question at the end, like Portalarium Roberts Space Industries have never answered any of my QA questions, even when I dedicate the time and take the time to make a video edit a video subtitle caption a video, even then my questions are ignored but aside from that and I know Star Citizen is not SOTA but Chris Roberts makes some great points.

Found the full clip of PvP vs PvE..... here it is... I think it's worth a listen...

 

@Razimus

Hehe. We both did back up our arguments with big names. Chris Roberts and Ralph Coster.

By the way i love your Signature. Well done! But please tell me why you did use Dr. Pepper?

Loved the Chris Roberts Video.

I like him saying: Players should regards a Real Player sometimes as a End Game Monster.

 

Cool thanks, yeah I liked the points of your post, it's exactly why I enjoy the element of surprise but it's possible my style of play, anti PK PVPers are rare.

The first Ultima fan base group (online) was/is called the UDIC (Ultima Dragons Internet Chapter) founded in 1992. I would have joined back in 1992 but my house didn't get the internet until around 1995, and even then I still didn't hear about it until late 1996. I joined the UDIC on June 2, 1997, I heard about it in Ultima Online circles. My UDIC name is Dr. Pepper Dragon. I've always been a big fan of Dr. Pepper and it was the IRC name I used at the time in channel Ultima. Some notable UDIC members are Felicia Day aka Codex Dragon who joined on April 29, 1992. I'm pretty much the same age as her so she was lucky to have internet access in 1992, she talks about being a UDIC member in a SOTA related interview with Garriott, she's one of the originals, the 24th UDIC member to join. The current number of UDIC members, total Dragons is 16,175. I heard there used to be meet-ups back in the day but it's really a loose group of Ultima fans,when I see a fellow Dragon in games which is very rare I say hi. In 18 years I've seen so few Dragons (going by their dragon names) I can count them all on two hands. So, many people make a name and never use it again. But there are fellow dragons on these forums such as Miracle Dragon. Garriott dedicated the Ultima IX collector's edition after the UDIC which is why it is called the Dragon Edition. The site is still up; http://udic.org/

 

I've found in my experiences everyone wants to be the hero, but no one wants to fight the villain, because fighting the villain means losing a few times and having to learn from your mistakes. It's a lot easier to pretend and role-play you're a great swordsman in a bar in Trammel than put it to the test on the highways of Felucca.

 

I ask myself what Game Developers are the ones who are out there who are willing to ignore the "money" and the "mass of players" to provide a game for a "minority interest in regards to our subject"

Currently i know only of 1 Game Developer - Dean Hall

He has a unique rebellious approach of how he wants to make games ignoring the "money" or the "market data".

He made enough money with DayZ and wants most realistic and dangerous games.
He started a own studio. Leaving Bohemia restricting his visions.

So i asume just as DayZ you will have the Option to play a "Hero" as he has a game world that accepts that you need all players, including the villains, bad ones, and the scum of humanity.

I got about 5 steam codes still available. So if anyone wants to make a sneak into a dangerous world with me with every mistake futile. Just tell me.


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Ran and played on DayZ servers for quite a long time, still love that game.

 

Myrcello:

It's a great discussion to have, and a thoughtful one as opposed to the normal PvP rants, so thank you.

There are three things that make this a little more complex for the discussion:

1) On p. 49, it is not just PvP that causes the unpredictable patterns, it is also player-made content (think of the games players have created in SotA so far) and social interaction. I would say this is why UO lasted, not because of PvP.

2) Why does chess survive, when other more complex PvP games don't? Because I think PvP as designed in most games becomes as predictable and boring as anything else. PvP'ers look for security too, just in a different way. I have the best combination of gear, the best stats, the best abilities. After a while once you have that, it gets boring, or you reach the limit of your button mashing ability and then it's just a contest of who has the faster twitch. Even if I have the faster twitch, that eventually gets boring. Another way this can be seen is that PvP devolves into predictable roles - there are "viable" builds in most games. Why do we talk about "tanks" and "healers" and "dps'ers" - because of PvPers looking for those builds that move things into predictable patterns. Most PvP isn't designed well enough to break beyond devolving into boredom too. My point is I think the PvP crowd looks for security and predictable patterns just as much, or at least a portion do by the way they max out the system. It takes a very special PvP game to stand the test of time. PvP isn't the salvation of any game, amazing design for fun is... and that is elusive, even in games with PvP.

3) Even though chess has a form of PvP that has stood the test of time, many people find it boring, even those who would do well in playing it. Not everyone finds fun in the same way, and that pure contest of logic and good choices, within a very simple game system, doesn't float everyone's boat. I don't know how to explain that, but it seems that just because something has good PvP, it doesn't mean it's going to be fun for everyone. There are factors that go beyond that quality of the PvP that influence why people choose the games they do.

 

I totally aknowledge that PVP is only one way to counter patterns.

Game Made Content like you said as a further example.

The Events that we see in SotA are a nice example.

Theater Show, PvP Events, Mazes, Obstacle Courses and more.

Then we of couse have games that are not a MMO and are just a Story with a ending.

Many will probably only wait for the Solo Part of the game.

I had many of them myself.

I think RVR as DAOC was a great example of PVP Endgame not requiring for a long time for the Developers to deliver new content.

But even that had after a time some kind of pattern.
As it had 3 realms vs 2 realms like warhammer it had more twists and suprises.








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Whilst I didn't read the document- I think is likely true that PK/pvp keeps a game and its communities flourishing longer.

 

PKs are part of the UO feel we are all here for. Nuff said ;-)

 

Quick and to the point comment. THANK YOU myrcello!!! I agree completely with your OP.

PKs make the game unpredictable and in my opinion that is where the fun is. Games like shroud already put in means to stop those PK from killing players that do not wish to take part. . For those that do not know the secret yet. .

TAKE OFF YOUR PVP TAG!!!

If you are wearing a PVP tag you open yourself to it and you know the risk. it is not my accident you get flagged and you get a warning when entering a PVP town. .

Do not want to PVP or be PKd. Remove the tag. .pretty simple.

If you do not like them ruining your fun or telling you how to play. . What right have you to do it to them?? Hypocrisy plain and simple.

 

I am soon going to visit the Oracle. But to be honest. I am not the one who visits him on lvl 1.

 

I do not visit oracle on 1v1. That is what duel is for. When my tag goes on. . It is permanent.

 

Having been in null sec for almost a year in Eve, and in early Ultima Online, these environments focused one's instinct and perception of keeping track of everything. It was a refreshing way to play, but not something I wished to carry on in a day to day play style. The many options offered in SOTA seem to work towards all the perspectives, not to say its not without its bumpiness, but the framework is working well.

Thank you for posting this perspective.

 

Sad , that the Play of Pks is NOT what gives them a bad name, nor is it that they are bad for game development.

The PROBLEM is the person behind the keyboard - PERFECT example is the issue ongoing with Jacob. He clearly stated that his whole purpose to go to the event was to create as much havoc and interruptions as he could!!!!!

Those are the players that no matter how much you validate your reason for being a PK the Cream comes to the surface and ROTS.

Therefore the rest of the community just wants NOTHING to do with them.

The game design and the actual mind behind the fighter most defiantly could help development BUT -----

 

1) Do *not* be presumptuous and attempt to speak for the community as a whole - "Therefore the rest of the community.. blah blah blah".. BZZZZ wrong! -- There are those in the community who because of Jacob have views on the whole PK situation as we do.

2) Yes, he went to create havoc and interruptions.. hello.. CHAOS is what? kthx!

3) There is absolutely *nothing* wrong with his mind set. If one can not accept the way he thinks .. there is a block/ignore feature. There is also a removal of PvP flags.

Your post is called harassment. He got blocked/banned/served his time. Now you purposely are sitting here insulting his personality and traits? Tell me where this makes you any better then you are saying he is?

If you want someone to act a certain way, show them the way. What you are doing is no different then what you are saying he is doing. Yet, you are okay with doing it and not okay with him doing it? hypocrisy!

You do not want to ruin your game play and yet, proceed to ruin his. ..

I do not support his acts, I do not agree with what is said in anger or frustration (we all do it, as a red head I do it more then many - I know another red head who does it also...She can not deny it! I however as much as I understand it, also do not support the views that are said in anger.. they are just that.. said in anger and frustration and not usually meant as such) .

But, I also do not agree with character assassination or disintegration.

This is my opinion. It does not make it fact, it is merely an opinion of someone who right now is just sitting back and shaking her head. Both sides of this silly thing are doing the exact same thing. Except one side is going "they shouldn't do it, but we can"

Enough is enough already! Seriously!

 

A Game needs to clearly communicate what options will be available in regards to player vs player interaction and if they support or dissaprove such behaving.

This leads to pre acceptions and prepared players expecting to deal with player behaviours like Jacob.

To explain it with a simple game comparison.

The same Event on DayZ :

Jacobs Avatar would have been killed the moment he started harrasing the Event.

He would have respawned with nothing.
Problem solved.

So games can be designed giving all play styles a option

SotA resolved the issue now with Lot Restrictions.
I am fine with that.
Even so a ingame jail to throw his avatar in would be cool also.









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Again, Myrcello - Completely agreed.

This was also the case in Ultima Online - Felucca.

Expect the PKs to kill you as soon as you walk out your front door. But, do not want them in your land, ban them. Worked well... and there was no PvP flag. Here in Shroud - the felucca and Trammies are combined. Giving PvP Flags.

I think many of the rule sets put in place are done well and present great ways to work with everything. Do not want certain things to be done... don't do your events there, don't wear the tag, block/ignore/remove the person.

I still fail to see the issue. Except for what was said in anger or frustration. There is absolutely nothing wrong with his game play.

 

Weins is pretty much right. PK'ers are great for the game, its harassment that falls outside the definition of player vs player that usually causes upset, and people then generalise and think everybody involved with PVP is set from the same mold. There are plenty of PvP'ers and PK'ers that fight, duel and gank without feeling the need to spam and whisper obscenities, stalk you outside of the game or engage in other forms of harassment. Don't let the extremely small number of jackasses ruin a very challenging and enjoyable aspect of the game for you. The ignore feature is now working a little better.