please add six million dollar stretch goal to abandon dual scale map

Garrett, there is a whole picture here, so I understand if you think that the game doesn't have anything to offer you that you might be missing out. So much is going to change. Many hexes will get bigger and some may connect. When I am walking toward a gorgeous mountain and the game starts zoning me out sometimes I'm like ooooh I wanted to explore that mountain. These are valid points to make. So much is possible in our world, that is why we are here. You think you can't explore that mountain, well if you listen in we aint seen nothing yet, hang in there and watch and see, and don't stop giving your ideas. I do understand what you are saying. I for one think our world will become very explorable over time, lots of magic still to come. Treasure hunting, boating etc.

 

i agree. this one thing alone will be enough to keep players away from this game.

It really really really kills the magic of the MMORPG game.

I feel like when this game is actually released, people will come here from other games, possible even more old UO players, they will see that, and ragequit.

 

The only way i would accept this idea, is if a few things changed.

Like you said, zooming out would be nice. you should seamless zoom out of the road into the map, on the exact same location. you should be able to easily chose which access points you enter each zone in.

Players houses should show up on the overmap as well. PVP encounters would be provokable as well

 

totally agree

This Overlandmapsystem sucks right from the beginning.

Sorry

 

Yeah, those sound like people I really want to play with....I really like the map, it give the world a larger feeling and still allows the devs the ability to add to the game for less.

 

This is a long thread and I have not read all of it. But back in 03/2013 Chris stated the following:

In addition to staying true to Richard’s earlier works, the dual scale system allows the following benefits:

More dynamic world: By breaking the 1-to-1 connection between the overland tiles and the content they are attached to and generating the overland map through data instead of baked art, we are free to change up areas of the world far more easily. Things like changing out a section of the map to be infested by a plague or have a mountain turn into a volcano is as easy as pushing new map tile data and connection information. This also allows us to easily roll out new scenes as we complete them to ensure the game stays fresh and interesting on a weekly basis.

Less painful travel: As much fun as it is to be able to occasionally just wander in the wilderness, in the long run, people generally prefer to be able to get around quickly and not have to spend an hour trying to figure out what the best way to get to the other side of the mountain is going to be. That is fun the first three times and a game exiting moment on the 23rd time. Because we’re not doing our quests as “run to this X on your radar”, there will be far more detective and foot work involved and not making that travel element a huge chore was important to not destroying the game flow.

Quicker content creation: I know the average user doesn’t think about this kind of stuff but it is huge in the reality of game development. Budgets are not infinite so speeding up content creation means we get more stuff done in the same amount of time with fewer bugs and more polish. End result is we can give you guys a bigger, smoother game experience with fewer bugs and quicker fixes when we do find things!

Easier content delivery: Breaking up the world into little chunk simplifies content delivery to the end users and also patching.
Lower machine requirements: Giant seamless worlds are a challenge for even the most powerful computers out there. By splitting up the world into focused scenes we greatly lower the machine requirements.

More scaleable multiplayer experience: Most people are shocked to hear that one of the most expensive systems on large scene MMO servers, is mob/character visibility. Not the actual ray testing to see if they can be seen but the logic of figuring out which entities should be updated of others actions. Chopping the world up into smaller, bite size chunks greatly simplifies those calculations.

Allows us to more easily insert single player experiences into the multiplayer version. Because the multiplayer version of the game shares the majority of the single player quest line, there are times when we need to isolate the player from a party situation for storyline reasons. These situations won’t be too common but there are just some things that an avatar must do alone!​

I doubt any of this has changed much.
Long thread and I have not read all of it. But back in 03/2013 Chris stated the following:

 

Look at it like this, people keep using everquest as an example for zones, it cost 3 million dollars to develop everquest. Now we are here present day and we have a much better engine to work with (supposedly the one swtor is using) and we have less limitations that eq did in the start so why coudlnt they do this for less then the 20 million. Heck if a complete game can be created for 3 million they can sure as heck do a lot more then this with the money they have now.

The way its setup is to make it easy for development, just like swtor is, you jump to space to go anywhere we have the same thing here except you don't jump into space to go about. There is no feeling of a semi seamless world at all, it feels very disjointed and laborious to go anywhere at all and they attacks you get while going from zone to zone are annoying and remind me of the stuff they had in age of conan when you were harvesting, the random mob spawns that attacked out of the blue, annoying at the least tiring at the most and the most are not even lvl centric, there just annoyances that give you very little xp at all. At least increase the difficulty of the mobs on them as you increase in lvl.

 

You do realize EQ was first released in 1999 and 3 million then is not the same as today. That would be around 4 to 5.2 million today. Calculation by measuringworth.com

So you may have the same amount of capital effectively. But you now have to calculate the increase of salaries, rents, licenses, fees, property expenses, legal fees, and the list goes on and on. So you need even more capital.

The development of software can be calculated to a fair degree provided nothing goes wrong. So I trust the sated amount by Chris. Think about this, throwing out the current map system and developing a new system would necessitate:

1. A large loss of capital expenditures to date in the current development process.
2. Require new capital for the requested changes.
3. Require substantial system changes for the different system.
4. Increase the development time and therefore real expenses such as salaries, rents or taxes, and other items.
5. And much more that I am not even close to mentioning.

The system is here and will not change. It may be refined, modified, or altered to varying degrees but it most likely will not change unless there is a substantially critical flaw in the existing code requiring a rollback to earlier releases.

 

Not quite correct. The original pile of 3 million (now 5.5 lets say) is exactly what it took to develop the game, with salaries

What did you think they spent the 3 million on? Computers?

Also, that investment of 3 million for the original EQ was a huge suck on infrastructure development and engine costs.

Neither of which are concerns for this project. They leverage a cloud solution for the infrastructure, and the engine is peanuts compared to doing one from scratch or chucking out 250k-500k for a AAA engine.

That is not to say they don't have associated costs to run on the cloud hardware, but it is no where close to what it costs to maintain machines and pay the electric/cooling in house.

This I agree with but because of the actual resources at hand. They just dont have a separate R&D team that can continuously iterate ideas. They sold one look, 9 months later they tried to sell something else they thought about, people voiced a hell no, and they went back.

Where all those dissenting voices the only voices? No. Where they the loudest? Maybe. The point is, just like everything else here, if you dislike something, say it. That is the entire point of this project (as sold at least).

If you just don't happen to be on the side of Angels? Well, it sucks, had many of those design ideas I thought are horrible end up as the game (combat, pvp so far, the over iterating on housing, etc...)

I can say, I don't think you have a huge amount of people, at this point, wanting to abandon the map @ 6 million, so...

 

Having looked through all the posts on this form, it sounds like most people want a zoning system similar to that in EQ. I think there is a good way to have this zoning system but keep the outerworld map.

In UO, players could recall to marked locations at the cost of reagents or scrolls. I think the outerworld should be used to show teleporting locations, rather then have a character molded run around in it for 10 seconds. In some ways, this is also like the fast-travel system in Skyrim, but players would need to mark locations. I believe this would have a great number of benefits that could make everyone happy.

1. The developers dont have to completely scrap the outerworld map, just re-purpose it as a location marking map (no outermap character model)
2. Without loading a character into the outermap, players would only have the wait for one load screen between zones!
3. Players could use the current gate system to teleport to other cities/towns they have already visited with no reagent cost. (very helpful to new players)
4. This system would still require everyone to explore the map for their first 10+ levels via-zoning like EQ. After that they could start marking/teleporting to locations if that put points into the skill.

 

I have worked on a significant number of projects in my life. There is significantly more than salaries involved. Or are you aware of such things as licensing fees, equipment, software, taxes, utility bills, insurance, and numerous other overhead issues. Think about this - an average of a 60,000$ salary per person + 12,000$ for employee costs such as insurance, only gets you about 25 employees for 3 years. That alone is 5.4 million. If you lower the salary to a 40,000$ average + the 12k employee costs then you will spend close to 4 million. You might want to revaluate your numbers.

 

of course I realize, I even do it.

They have not run 3 years. They haven't run two years. they also have a median salary range around 40k, not 40k starting. how am I sure? cause we hire a lot of green people here and they just barely hit 800 week. Texas has a cheaper cost of living than California, so easier to pay off the start.

There are a lot of vets, but there are a lot of greenies here as well. Artists here are unionized, so we pay in zero benefits for them as well, could be the same there, if they even get any.

now run the numbers for ramp up and down of personnel over 20 months. I can't recall if it's this thread or not, but I recently ran the numbers, and used the numbers I track from my signature as a growth for the next X months.

I came out with another year's worth of growth to the pledges, with the current staff, to zero sum budget.

even at a moderate rent+utils for their area, including insurance on the equipment, etc, is still not going to be the bulk. The bulk is the employee money. And that falls squarely into the got enough for another year, no problem, column for me.

But you obviously agreed with my numbers given that you say 60k plus insurance is enough your 25 people for three years at exactly the money they have now. great. and since it is not three years, only 20 months, we still have a year to go at least.

which means increased income from new pledges and old. sounds like another million to me. which would be more than enough to convert all those other costs, like rent, util, equipment and even software licenses.

so my numbers must be pretty close, thanks for pointing that out.

 

I live in Texas, in College Station as a matter of fact, 1.5 hours from Austin. I do business here, there, and in other parts of this state, nation, and world. I will tell you any experienced programmer earning 800 a week in Texas needs a new company as that's really pretty low for experienced programmers. For new hires out of college I can see 40K to start. Not all artists are unionized, especially in Texas as we are a right to work state. As for not yet 3 years in the development cycle, that is true but you have to plan for future expenditures and costs. Any way you cut it there is not enough in the budget to finish 5 episodes yet. Bottom line is the budget is really tight on this game. As for your numbers they are off. Unless you hire cheap inexperienced workers with little or no expertise. But, if cheap inexperienced workers is what you want then that's your business not mine.
Please do not put words in my mouth saying I agree with you that's just a little preemptive misdirection on your part and I won't give in on that point. Uncalled for and poor debate tactics. Either your point stands on its own or it doesn't. I've been doing software for 30 years now and have a solid grasp on development times, cycles and budgets. My point is and remains the budget is tight and there is not enough room there to get a map change. Trust Chris on his estimates he knows his project better than any outsider.

 

My business does not hire baseline entry employees. This project has, on a number of occasions, done that. They hire from the college(s)/whatever game programs are running. No need to "guess" they have a list of employees you can look up.

My business, is not to hire cheap workers. We provide entry level positions, and a ridiculous growth package, so much that very few people leave Viacom/Nickelodeon for decades. So, dont put stuff in my mouth either, I never claimed to hire "cheap", just that it is evident that the expenditure here is ON THE CHEAP.

I also have been doing software for 30 years, congrats. I also do budgets and hiring and salary re-evals.

Chris is NOT the accountant, nor is he the producer. He is a supervisor of an area of the development, not the lead on the entire project.

My point DOES stand on its own. Your numbers absolutely agree with what I posted.

I never claimed they had enough for 5 episodes <--- you just did. I simply said they had enough for 3 years, given that the averages for income continue along AT LEAST at the rate they are now.

And considering this game is only 20 months into build, and 3 years is 16 months away, that is entirely possible, especially with the recent reductions to [expensive] cost centers that they no longer need i.e. Concept Design/Art.

Cheers.

 

Well we do agree that the project is on a shoestring and a prayer. We also agree the employees are on the non (large) corporate track. I was not implying your business hires cheap. It is not in my companies best interests or yours to follow that path. On that point we also agree. The cheap route invariably has quality control issues inherent with that decision arc. It also seems we have had similar careers and our estimations on staffing and projection costs do somewhat agree. Since we are within 20% of each other without access to necessary information to trim that down I think perhaps we are just saying the same thing from different viewpoints.

So to clarify my position.
I personally do not believe Portalarium can or will get to the point to do a single scale map, regardless of stretch goals. Instancing is the process they chose for many reasons and I do not expect them to change it no matter how much is raised.

As for Chris I agree about his position if he was in a large corporate environment. However, in a small company as opposed to a large one an individual has disproportionate influence on a project. The closer the ties the more distinct the skewing becomes. We have already seen many examples of mission creep in this project. Another step in that direction could cause some backsplash in the waterfall cycle wasting necessary resources needed on more pressing issues.

 

Yeah, they could, but I agree as well, they (probably) will not.

And a fair enough point, he most likely does have more influence over general area funding than in a 200+ team.

And indeed, creep... oh man, this project needs a much more stern hand "steering" the helm IMO. That is the single point I have brought up many, many many many times. Granted, pete and repeat, but it really can make or break a project if you have all those cooks and no head chef.

To me the head chef likes to taste the wine too much, and his executive chef seems content to expedite appetizers rather than fire meals on time.

 

OK, I definitely needed that analogy. I can't stop laughing. I truly wish them the best though. It takes a lot of guts to attempt to do a project this way. having done the Fortune 100 and small company route in my life. The larger is more predictable and the other is about conquering small mountainous goals.

Have a great day.

 

I don't understand how removing the overworld and adding in load screens at each zones edge would be require some great innovation. It sounds reasonable to me, it's not seamless loading aka no load screens.

 

That would require every hex on the map to be complete.

 

The overworld map is starting to look really good and apparently the upcoming main content map is supposed to be outstanding, according to Lord B and Chris.

Personally I'm really happy about the way it's turning out, especially when they start adding animations and actions like wandering NPCs (both evil and good ones hopefully).

It's preferrable to the forms of fast travel you see in other games IMO.