(poll) Combat Deck System [UNOFFICIAL]

yeah there is no reason there shouldn't be both options. However deck has far more potential especially since there are no slugs... I'm going to speculate that we will start seeing more favorable results for just removing the slugs.

Slowly but surely this system is being refined by fire. In R8 there was no question that the deck was FAR superior to a locked toolbar. I foresee that this will happen again... and no I don't need powers of premonition to make that claim, because I saw its raw potential in R8 for myself.

 

Dude, look back through the posts, I'm not revising history, I'm standing up for the people you just marginalized, of which I am one. There has always been significant numbers of detractors from the deck system.

It's not a sin to admit that not everyone likes the idea, and the only reason opposition wasn't more frequently posted was that the system wasn't in place at first, and the severe focus penalties for locking one's deck weren't there for the first round of random decks.

This forum HAS lost members over this, and the game as a whole will lose members over it as well. As long as locked decks are a TOTALLY reliable alternative, most of those players will just say how much they hate the idea, but if locked decks get nerfed...

 

question for ya.

if the locked decks aren't touched, but the random decks 'risk for reward' system gets beefed up - would you still consider that nerfing the locked decks?

if so, why?
if not, why not?

Tag, you are it!

 

You can put a poll up asking if the entire concept should be thrown out the window and started over from scratch as a full loot, sci-fi first person shooter and people would vote yes. The deck is not an added feature, it is a core feature. Designing features according to input from the community is not the same as abandoning core features around which the entire game is being developed. It is the same for requesting no player housing be implemented, or requesting that Tracy Hickman be replaced by Suzanne Collins. Suggesting tweaks and additions to the deck system is one thing, but throwing it out the window is another.

 

I would prefer Suzanne Somers, personally.

 

The problem with having multiple competing systems is always game balance. It's why I argue against divisive systems. Now, the locked deck vs random deck systems are not mutually exclusive, but even though we can all choose to vary our deck builds, if one or the other becomes SIGNIFICANTLY better, then it will tip the balance. The process is thus.

1)One power base or another gets buffed, or nerfed, or modified, such that one or the other is significantly better.
2)Human nature kicks in in fast forward, as the online gaming community jumps on the better system.
2b)Diehards stick to the weaker method and whine on the forums.
3a)The massive shift in the player base presents the devs with armies of players completing PvE content too quickly.
3b)The massive shift in the player base presents the devs with armies of players winning at PvP due to superior powers.
4)The devs are forced to increase PvE difficulty to rebalance the game.
5)Now, PvP or PvE, if you don't use the new, better power base, you are weaker than normal, and get punished.

So I'm against buffing one without balancing it against the other, I'm against nerfing one without nerfing the other. Random and Locked decks should be as close to perfectly equal as possible, with only player preference making the choice.

 

Completely agree.

There is random
There is locked
And then there is Hemlockian

 

Balanced (dps, healing, burst) decks where one is locked (eyes off) and one is random (eyes on). This isn't a "keep or toss" the deck system issue. It is an issue of how to transform the current fixed deck into a modern, satisfying option. But what should the transformation look like? There are plenty of on-market examples to evaluate eyes-off performance. What other mmo's or rpg's have received the highest acceptance and praise for eyes-off interface performance. Does anyone have a favorite? If there happened to be a clear winner or two, we could request devs consider it in generating the transformation.

 

Malak, thanks for the clear answer - i appreciate it. i'm honestly on the fence with keeping them perfectly in line with each other. i understand why they need to work identically while visually being different for aesthetics purposes, but i also feel that having one have a greater reward while having the greater risk factor is just a fricking neat option. i'd be ok with dying more if i can kill better and more awesomely the other half of the time, as an extreme.

ttenebj, my favorite of traditional was guildwars 2. static but skills changed based on the weapon, not the player skills trees. - while my favorite of a newer style was tera. the active combat was amazingly engaging. a close second was eso where they had some visual cueues to look for for you to do your counters in time.

 

Now, this might just be me personally, and the six or seven people I've spoken to in the fleshyworld. Maybe we are an anomaly, but none of us give a fetid dingo's kidney about an aesthetically pleasing action bar. Really, I just want to know that it works, and that I can depend on it to translate my decisions into the game. If I want my character to run right and jump over that fence, I want it to happen. Immediately, smoothly, and with no BS. If I want my character to hurl an opening fireball, the ONLY interference I want in that is A) Hey dude, you didn't manage your resources, you are out of juice! or B) Hold on and let me charge up that fireball, boss!

I don't need to the control bar to be VISIBLE, I do need it to WORK. Randomly changing button assignments don't meet that definition, and I find it phenomenally distracting. The locked bar currently works, but only if I plant my feet and tank'n'spank every fight. Which is less than entertaining, but ok. If I MOVE, then suddenly my focus bar drains like a colander, and I'm out of juice and full up on enemies.

 

I think it makes sense/fun for the bruisers but is not an option for the healers and high mages, they depend on the right spell the right time,

And i have the sneaking suspicion it is an XBox thing.. what the mole type.

We need at least the hit point bars right above the cards, cant focus on cards AND hit bar

 

but that would be admitting defeat in that the devs can't get the focus from the bar..

 

I died two time due to that, it is ackward and embarrasing....

 

I searched a bit and I think you aren’t alone in your selection of GW2 as having the best eyes off, fixed deck UI, ThurisazSheol. Although sometimes downgraded by some due to complexity, GW2 seems to be at the top of many combat system praise lists.

GW2 offers a fixed deck that seems to fully support eyes off playstyle. Fixed position keys handle combo’s via key slot overlap. For example, key 1 (which seems pretty spammable unlike other cooldown required keys) executes a base card displayed in slot 1. Immediately after execution and instead of triggering a cooldown, the key 1 slotted card begins to flash indicating that combo function availability. If not pressed after several seconds, the flashing ends and the secondary (combo) function is lost. Another combo type offered still involves overlapping a selected first card with a second combo card within the same slot, wherein the second card does not flash or time out and remains available until selected. In other words, it acts like a toggling function between two cards. Most cards though operate traditionally – selection triggers a dimming of the card graphic indicating global cooldown. Cooldowns seem to vary substantially card to card.

Arrangement: Main deck size is fixed at 10 slots split into 5 left and 5 right. In the middle, GW2 offers a health bubble and a focus ring widget for reference. A secondary deck, F1-F4, is also available with deck cards that seem contextual to a particular class. There is a weapon swap key that on-the-fly (mid-combat) changes an entire fixed deck to a second deck layout to support a swapped in second weapon.

In ESO, their eyes-on UI includes only 5 fixed keys only plus one (used for a long cool down "ultimate" function). Many players think the 5 key restriction is far too limiting, and complaining never seems to end. All cards have differing cooldowns. As I recall being an interesting feature, some cards can be pressed multiple times in rapid succession within a certain time window before falling into longer term cooldown. Although I could be wrong, it doesn’t seem to support more traditional combo’g. Some complexity though is offered through weapon switching to draw a new fixed 6-deck. Further complexity is introduced through a massive number of different types of cards that can be selected for each deck.

I can't remember whether ESO or GW2 support combo'g type functionality through buff and debuff presence, but I've seen it elsewhere. That is, pressing a first card causes a buff or debuff that when present enhances performance of a second card. Such two cards might exist within a single player's deck or might span multiple players. For example, a mage dots a mob with a burn-baby-burn card and a rogue plays a poisoned dagger card to place a poison dot. The presence of a poison and fire dot might then trigger a combo behavior like an explosion.

So what can we recommend from these to enhance our current rigid deck? How about:

1) Visual deck swapping key which triggers predefined 2-deck swap-overs mid-combat. This might involve underlying weapon swapping and/or deck type (random versus fixed) on the fly swap-outs. Additional consideration: would full gear swapping be permitted alongside the deck swap, and, if so, would armor switching trigger a deck to deck switchover delay?

2) Multiple, spamming plays of a single card before triggering a cooldown
a. this could be based on a card type or generated via stacking during deck building, wherein repeat count before cooldown could be defined based on how many cards were purchased during training (1 to 5)
b. temporary flashing card position to indicate availability)
c. could involve holding the key down as an alternative to pressing 5 times independently

3) More powerful Pre-Stacked Cards:
a. During deck construction, if you place a same card over another within a single slot, a stack count appears. At higher stack count, a card might offer progressively increased dps or healing output but at a cost in cooldown and/or focus
b. Could also introduce RNG into stacking. For example, a random multiplier (range 0.2 to 1) could be applied to the stacked 5 card and 5x max dps/healing output. Cooldown could similarly be randomized. Thus, a higher stack count card might provide burst (on average with RNG) but with a much longer cooldown (on average or outright) than a single or lower stack count card.

4) Combo’g via single key slot, new (combo) card overlays perhaps with flashing to highlight availability. Available either always after the base card execution, after two appropriate sequence base cards are pressed, upon RNG and/or when triggered (position or reaction).

5) Buff and debuff based combo'g based on single player decks and group cooperative deck-play.

6) Further pie in the sky possibilities:

a. add in secondary F1-F4 type deck for further interesting interaction to be defined

b. assigning characteristics to card slot positions and not just to the cards themselves (i.e., where a card plus a slot define the performance outcome of a selection). For example:
i. making slot 1 somewhat spammable, (short cooldown) and cooldowns increasing slot by slot through the entire deck
ii. last slot or two having very long cooldowns and can be used for combos or stacks
iii. requires making combo cards selectable during deck construction for fixed deck population

c. instead of dev generation, consider making all combo’s a pre-defined effort performed by player during deck building.
i. Anything Goes Combo Building: Any two cards might be combined, e.g., healing plus damage, or double damage, and with combined underlying single card buffs, dots, debuffs. Could even let the player name the resulting combo card. This seems to be something like stacking but could have interesting fluid, animation stitching.
ii. Combo Functions Constructs: Let player build their combo cards by selecting only one of a damage or healing card then adding in a combo function (perhaps visually offered as sub-cards) which include crowd control, escape, movement type “sub-card” functions (non-damaging and non-healing) that can only to be combined therewith. Such combo’s might then be placed in only one or two fixed combo card slots, with or without activation enablement requirements (position, reactive, RNG, etc.). Sub-card functions might involve RNG, and cost more (in terms of focus and/or cooldown). RNG percentage (likelihood of success) might be increased based on stacking the base card.

d. RNG functionality having odds increased via stacking: Imagine one thrust card having a 20% chance of stunning but a 5-stack card slot yielding a 100% chance. Likewise, a combo of cold touch and a slicing blade card might combo to a freezing slice card with a slice damage component, cold damage component, and chance to freeze in place the target for 1 second. Stack that combo card 3 times in a single slot (if you have all the underlying card needs trained up) and, in addition to damage and cooldown increases, you might see a freeze for 3 seconds.

Many of these things could be implemented pretty easily based on the current build. Even implementing half could transform our fixed deck experience into something much more exciting, don't you think? There would be lots of original deck-workings for players to tweak ad infinitum. Then, devs could just introduce one new card function for a given weapon, or better yet (to avoid complaints of balance) a sub-card function that could span all weapons and trigger a deck-building frenzy. One might also ponder how these possible enhancements synergize with our current random deck too for further fun.

 

Weapon swapping (including shields) makes sense, i draw a hard line at swapping other gear.

Bow over shoulder and picking up shield, drawing sword makes sense, peeling oneself out of an leather armor and donning some heavy plate for close combat that .. ugh.. well.. i would to have swearwords to express my feelings about that.

The whole random deck set thing does add something to fights but i still maintain that it only makes sense for melee toons, and there only for the basic moves, every toon that has to use timing and strategy is nerfed by that

Cleric "Oops sorry you died there pal, there was no greater heal coming up in my deck for five draws!"
Magician "Sorry you got pasted guys, I got only firebombs the last three draws."

Add anything like enchanter types and so on and the mayhem will be entertaining but short.

I guess the cards drawing thing originates from whack the mole type of games but they where designed for it, "classical" DnD type games like UO or SotA not so much, there the tactic of using the right move at the right time makes card decks iffy for anyone but pure melees (And if you are maintank of an group you need that stun or bash or taunt RIGHT NOW and not maybe when it pops up.)

So in my humble opinion (heh yeah sure humble) it is like that:

So card decks are fun for the dualwielding bruiser and what not, full stop

 

GW2 also had serious issues with combat macro and multibox users, which was what the deck system is trying to prevent. Allot of the above are good ideas but they also re-enable combat macros. As it is you can use a fixed deck to macro but it still wont match the focus efficiency and increased DPS of the random deck. Reshaping and repositioning that combat bar so it doesn't force attention to the bottom of the screen so much would help allot for those who have trouble using it.

 

I have no trouble using it, but it does favour dps toons and nerfs stratetic toons.
If you want to prevent macro so it by putting thought into an intricate systhem of challenge-response that makes macros an hinderance.

Right now honestly even fighting solo (leatherarmor toon with pole) It is like playing whack the mole, yes it makes it slightly more entertaining but i do not consider thinking at making an toon for healing in a group or so, i would have to sink tons of points into locked cards.

What i want to say is you do nerf all support and crowd controll toons this way.

Tanks need to put there slams and taunts at a specific times into use.
Battlemages so not spam fireballs, or better not should do that
Clerics, obvious

Even archers should not spam arrows.

High dps out put only really counts in pvp, there tactics are secondary beside setting up an toon and trying to pounce unexpected, dps high and so on,

PvE was always about tactics, not burning through the opponent (and if that is the gamestyle here i wave goodbye to my pledge and take my time elswhere because if the new strategy is "high dps" i am outta here.

I want to have all that tactic stuff, it is fun to be good because you do the best thing at the right time, not look if the right card popps up...

Maybe have skill who only work over cards and then skill only over locked cards.

But for my opinion cards rob the game of tactics and replace it with spamming keys.

You could use it for mellee toons to maybe stack attacks, have 6 cards presentet and click one, then an whole new deck and find quick an attack that builds on the last one and with an approbiate third choice from an new deck makes an massive critical hit, that would add an balance of luck and tactic to melee.

Clerics mages and tanks though so not benefit at all from that, they need to base there response on how things are going not onto what cards they maybe have or sink a lot of points into reducing costs due to locking there moves.

You punish everyone who does not play for dps only.

 

my opinion is have an paper dool of the attacker with icons representing what attacks he will execute then you have to choose an counter for that, maybe out of cards random presentet and cards you can have locked (like 6 random, four locked fields)

So you have to take your bet onto the building an attack that is massive and depends on luck too, or go the safer way and use the fixed cards.

still not really what i see as putting tactic into the game but it would be the lesser evil.

as it is i play no support toons, no point to really do with "good luck heals"

 

I have to add........a nice system of combat is Continent Of the Ninth (Very much skilled because of movement and re-positioning)

The random deck does not feel as i am the person executing the moves, i have my style of play even if i am not the top dps of the group.
I like the fixed deck, downsides :

1) Not allowing Combos to be executed ?!?!?
2) Focus penalty :s

 

I play as a healer with a secondary deck for DPS and i am a fan of the random deck. If you grab level 5 higher conciousness to max out your hand size, and max concentration and mental reflex to increase deal speed and minimise discard speed it makes a massive difference. In addition to this, don't put cards in your hand over the max hand size. The combination of the above + stacking them as they pop up means you pretty much always have exactly what you need, though not necessarily as a five stack. I lock purify, light and resurrect in my last 3 slots. I daily run the PVE areas like sewers and compendium, often duel and occasionaly get involved with group PVP. I don't need to look directly at my bar to recognise my glyphs which is why i think i don't have problems stacking and casting while running and jumping, i just need them on the edge of my vision.