(poll) Combat Deck System [UNOFFICIAL]

Use the static tool bar then.

 

After playing R14 quite a bit so far I'm finding that the fact that stacking isn't playing such a big role as it did before is making it seem a lot better. When I first started playing this release I didn't think they made enough changes, but now I'm starting to realize that the deck is beginning to just facilitate my combat now.

I still have a deck that has mind lock, and one without, but I am not focusing on making huge stacks of 5 of each glyph. I suppose that I may have just been more focused on leveling to actually realize that I'm not getting stressed out by combat anymore. This is a good thing... not just the no stress, but the part about not realizing it. That means to me that the deck system is starting to become more transparent.
It might not be perfect yet, but it is getting there. I would still like to see an auto stack possibly. Although what they have done so far has reduced the micromanaging parts of the deck system significantly for me.

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One thing I can say certainly about the deck system today is that it is far superior to the static toolbar. I'm not refering to focus cost or any of that stuff. I'm talking about having more than one of the skill I need at any given time, and never having to wait for cooldowns. I just keep firing and firing. Every once and a while I prepare a level 3 stacked glyph.

Try it yourself and see. One thing is for sure if you feel like you are rolling a D20 to see if you have the skill you need... then man you are doing it wrong. With 10 slots and 25 to 33 glyphs in my deck I ALWAYS have the skill I need and more of it.

 

Ok, I think this is the right place to vent my spleen. Here's the reason I love the deck: It can give me a round of different skills even though I can't afford a wide range of them as fixed. The reason I won't use it: I have five skills, I get eight slugs. this means I spend most of my time running in circles, waiting.

But, let's forget all that. The unplayable part: The deck mixes healing and damage items in the same positions. Therefore I MUST spend all my time looking at my deck, instead of looking at the stunning graphics. This is very similar to watching a foreign subtitled films. Not that I don't love subtitles; they help me understand. But the first time through, one is "reading" the movie, and ignoring the visuals. If I wanted to read the game, I'd be reading a book. So, spending my time avidly staring at my active deck... is just not what I find fun. Plus... it's stressful.

I like the idea that the deck shuffles my skills. BUT... I require that SOME skills are always available.. I want to always be able to heal myself and to heal others. And, I want my fighting skills (any of them, it doesn't matter which) to be available. So, I suggest maybe we have a few locked spots and a few rotated ones. Or, alternately, we have slots dedicated to healing and light, and others dedicated to damage skills.

 

Cather, how many times have you trained in those five skills, each? you can drag multiple copies of the same skill over and lower your slugs that way.

example.
stone fist. you can train that up to five times. then you can drag it five times to your deck. or if you use the skill to lock some skills you can drag a couple down there instead. the latter, is how you make the hybrid deck, if you were not aware.

hope this helps.

 

Thank you Thurisaz! I will have to try that. I didn't know I could drag the same skill in more than once. And I had not yet seen the "skill to lock some skills".

That's incredibly helpful!

 

...neither randomized decks nor being limited to a few hotbar skills 'SotA style' is the solution! Unrestrained freedom is...

 

Exactly!!!

I wonder how long will take Dev team to accept this system is just wrong.

 

Unrestrained freedom? Are you referring to putting icons all over the screen like UO? Are you referring to creating macros with UO RAZOR-like apps?

Then maybe you are looking for the wrong game. Since Kickstarter one thing they mentioned was trying to create a user interface as clear of tiles and skills all over the place.

As for AssistUO and Razor type macros ... well they just aren't newbie friendly, and only the people with the best macroes will be the best in PvP. These type of macro tools are good for a game like UO, but honestly I much rather have a game that is rich in other ways and does not need to rely on well scripted macro tools. I don't mind 3rd party apps or tools to make changing clothes and giving us reminders when to eat or whatever, but I do not like having well scripted macroes helping out with combat in ANY way.


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So unrestrained freedom leaves A LOT of room for good programmers to come up with tricks to give themselves advantages. I like the deck system because it is far superior to a static toolbar and I always have the skills I want when I set up my deck right. In fact I usually have more than one copy of that skill so I never have to wait for cool-downs.

I'm finding in this release the deck system is beginning to appear a bit more transparent to me. I wouldn't want to see them scrap this feature at all because it not only works, it is a good combat system.

***FYI they will not scrap this feature anyway. It works and the majority of the people polled always say they want it. Every game comes with new things we need to learn. The combat system in this game is not bad at all. It is just new, and superior (if you give it a shot), otherwise use a static toolbar. Those are the options.

 

Isaiah, no. Regards.

 

If they don't scrap the feature they're making a huge mistake. The argument "they won't scrap it because the majority like it" works when the majority is 95%-5%, but over FORTY percent do not want it. That's a high enough number to make the game fail... especially considering the people voting are mostly Ultima fanatics and 40%+ STILL hate it.

What do you think that # will be when you poll people who have never played Ultima and aren't as biased? It'll be enough to effect public opinion and sway thousands from buying.

I dislike the overland map but can live with it. I think the artwork of the avatars is hideous, but I can live with it. With the exception of this silly/boring combat system and the 2 things I just mentioned I feel this game is incredible in every other aspect... I even like the skills trees well enough... however the combat/deck system is SO bad it's a gamebreaker for me. It's slow paced and the randomness is ridiculous. Even worse, is using static cards... it slows down the game even more, and why should we be penalized because we want to watch the game world and not a flippin slot machine?

And I HAVE given it a shot. I've tried using multiple of the same skills, I've used static decks, etc etc. Every time I login, I log out 20 minutes later if all I have to do is level, because the combat is so dull.

Fix the way skills are used somehow to remove the randomness and speed up the game and I'm pulling out my wallet and buying land and houses... but I don't think I'll even be playing if the deck and combat are not revamped. And I-want-to-play!

 

I haven't heard any devs say anything that majority like it but if they did they would know much better that anyone on this forum. Of 148,315 backers about 1% is active on this board and only 1% of those have answered this poll.

 

I am, sadly, in agreement with Barnabas Zick here. I pledged, I paid, I WANT SotA to succeed. I did NOT play UO, but I did play several of LBs other games, and I respect his vision as a game creator. But the current combat system is a deal breaker for me. I appreciate that some people love it, but studies have shown that a significant number of people will love ANYTHING that they are told to. Peer pressure results in tremendous shifts in viewpoint when it affects a large enough group.

The question is, can SotA survive the random combat bar system? If the miniscule 106 people who voted no in this particular poll leave, SotA won't notice. But if they are representative of the entire pledging population (And if this poll isn't representative, then claiming a majority like the system is equally false), then that means that sixty-thousand people will be baling on SotA just before release! If it is representative of how the game will do in the open market, it will lose almost half it's potential customers! No online MMO can afford to throw away half of it's customer base, that's just crazy talk.

 

I 100% accept your opinion on this matter. You speak from the heart and aren't using false devices to paint a picture that isn't true.

However I would like to point out that I am not somebody who loved this idea because I was told to. In fact if you would like to look up the threads from this time last year I was hollering loudly against this system. I held many of the criticisms against this system that others are bringing to the table today.

However I was finally convinced in R8 that my criticisms and prejudices were plain wrong. I ate humble pie and admitted that the system is in fact superior to any I've used before, and I wouldn't be standing up for it if I didn't see the potential of it.


Quite frankly cool downs last longer than any wait times for a glyph to appear in my deck (in fact I always seem to have the glyph I need). I mean honestly, how is it a random system if I always have the glyph I need when i need it??? At this point I don't really understand the arguments against this system because they are all scattered across the board complaining about issues that I am finding difficult to reproduce in my own experiences.

Can you explain why I and others are not experiencing ANY of the issues that people are bringing up against the deck system?

Also why isn't the static toolbar option a reasonable solution for those who rather have something more traditional?

Those questions are for anybody who has the answer. I seriously want to know what it is that people are talking about because I'm just not experiencing any of the issues that people are bringing up against this system.

 

To try and aswer Isaiah.. If I had to totally narrow down my dislike of the combat to specific details I'd offer these 3;

-I hate that I am forced to use different keybinds/buttons for different skills. I have played Archeage for around 6 months now and have played (I'm guessing) around 200 arenas. (5v5 battleground, around a 15 minute battle) I am FINALLY getting good at it... after hours and hours of playing the same class I can finally play without looking at my fingers and respond quickly. I know what skill the #1 key casts, #2, #3, etc. as well as when I can cast it. Random skills at random times in random places... in MY opinion is bad. Someone earlier used the driving example... if sometimes the long thin pedal on the right stopped the car, sometimes it made it go forward and at other times it turned on the radio, driving would be impossible, and at some times I'd have no way to stop the car. That's how the combat feels to me.

-The above will make some say "then use the static keys". I can only relate that to me falling asleep at the wheel. It is so incredibly slow and boring that I could literally play with one finger. Unfortunately, that same finger can be used to play with the random keys too. Combat is terribly slow in any mode.

-It's just not fun. You run up to something and push a button every few seconds until it's dead or run away. I'm finding it so terribly hard to put my finger on it, but I know that I have played a cpl dozen MMO's and you couldn't get me away from the computer... I'd play UO till 4:00am knowing I had to get up at 7:00. Here, I can't force myself to stay in game for an hour... especially if I'm leveling. Combat is simply non-climatic.

 

I am fully aware of your change of heart, Isiah. The problem is that your change of heart is already factored into these numbers. The people who were staunchly against and decided to switch camps were counted here.

When it comes to open market, the people who are initially against the idea will not stick around and let themselves be persuaded. Mostly they'll just bail, and some of them will become very vocal in dissing the game.

As to your questions. Take your eyes off the random bar. Really really take them off, as in, tape a piece of opaque paper across the bottom of your screen. Can you play without being able to watch the random glyphs? Cause that's what I want, what I demand, an eyes off system.

As for what's wrong with the locked bar, build one, then run around kiting and striking with your skills. It shouldn't even be a big respec, one of the areas I really like about the current system is how closely random support talents match locked support talents in total talent costs. Just move your points from draw and discard speed, maybe some hand size, and put them into reduced cost and locked slots on all remaining spaces. Then play. You'll notice the increased costs from moving and clicking right away. You probably won't really have cooldown issues, as I noted elsewhere, the number of copies you purchase of a single ability directly equates to it's cooldown, more = less. But the focus costs are appalling without the standing still buff.

And, once you aren't distracted by the random bar minigame, you'll probably start to notice how mind numbingly boring the combat can be.

 

for many people opposed to this, i have come to the belief that it is a human factor, not a logic factor.. i think that they see the boons you get from the random deck and not the static deck, and feel that they get penalized by choosing something else. personally i don't see it as that, i see it as a "risk for reward" type scenario, where you actually risk that you will not have the skills avaialble to you, and that your focus ont he combat itself has to be divided by your focus ont he bar too, and your recognition of the skills that popup based on their visual queues. a lot more risk than many seem to see, especailly with special utility skills like the stunbreaker for liches as one exmaple.

there were times where i just didn't have the skills up on my random bar when i needed them. often times i died as a result. sometimes it got VERY sketchy if i was to become aethereal or not.. i fully appreciate that risk, for the reward of having great combos i can use.

but, as a proponent of the random deck, i don't think combos should be left out of the static deck at all - but i also think that hybrid decks (i use it this way) should not be able to lock in a combo, and must rely on the randomness.. and when it is random i think the reward for the combos shoudl be greater than if it was static..not much, but enough to be absolutely noticable.

yknow malak, i think part of the reason they have both systems is to give the people who are bored with the traditional bars a greater challange. i've been bored with them since everquest 2 came out, so i find this minor change to be revolutionary. annoying because i can't focus on the environment, but at the same time i'm quite fond of the fact that they had the gumption to actually change such an important system. yes, it absolutely needs tweaking and they do that, bit by bit.

i, much like isiah, see the benefits and potential that this new system can proffer to us if we just embrace it. i certainly do not think it will be just like this in its final form, but there is just so much potential in this as a new combat system. as i said, if we all just embrace the fact that it isn't going to go away, and offer constructive critisism on it, we can all help shape it to hopefully reach its potential, so nobody except the purist of traditionalists get all porcupiney about it. and let me tell you, getting that many people to actually agree to something is TOUGH...

as for your suggestion on respeccing, i did that already (tried both methods in R12 when I started here, and also in R13 as well as already now in R14), almost IDENTICALLY to how you mentioned actually. yes, it is mind numbingly boring. yes, it is very traditional. yes, it is there for a reason. no, i will not use that methodology because i believe that this new one, albeit not working properly just yet, has more potential than what has already been drawn out by the traditional method, over the years. i'm slogging through my personal hatred of it, so i can help make it better..and i hope others do too.


that said, it isn't increased point costs for the lock deck, it is decreased on the random deck. you are not getting DOCKED on the locked deck, but random deck gives you that as a boon. - i think it needs to be a lower cost difference, but i agree that it SHOULD be there.

as for the standing still buff. the dev team seems to implement something then later on tweak the everloving hell out of it. and i think thats a great policy, once they get enough data mining on the issue. it has potential, but i much prefer moving around when fighting, making it more difficult for non-aoe mobs to hit you.. then again, you'd need a proper aming system even for non-ranged weapons. i think there are a couple games out there that have done that fairly well, and it just keeps getting better as time goes on. - guildwars2, on movement while in combat, i think has done that best so far. tera was a close second, but i din't think they implemented the aiming system just right...it would have been leagues above gw2 if they did.

i personally dislike the standing still buff, as it certainly does not allow for exciting combat styles in both pvp and pve, regardless of which deck style(s) you utilize.

 

For anyone who is wondering how to build a hybrid deck, the skill involved is Eidetic Memory, found under Magic > Focus.

In your combat deck, you can put glyphs in the bar at the bottom of the deck popup screen, and those become "locked" (no further action required for locking).

And, then you also add glyphs to the left side of the deck popup, and those become the dynamic part of the deck. There are more options there that control how fast the glyphs appear and such.

There's a helpful video here that explains it all, courtesy of TheMadHermit:

I am content with the hybrid system, because I can build up my Eidetic Memory skill if I want more locked glyphs. Or I can choose to lock less as my level advances.

I have to agree that combat is less exciting than I would like.
I think more interesting combat animations, and more variety of them (and perhaps some random special ones), would help quite a bit.

 

For anybody who claims the deck system is totally random and are mad that they don't have the skills they want to use at the proper time... watch this video.

Please forgive the poor audio quality etc, this is my first video I've ever created from a game and uploaded to Youtube. Since it is very hard to hear me this is basically what I say...

I am going to look for trouble and gather a lot of creatures and I will need area of effect spells and use them quickly because I will have a pack of wolves or spiders after me. WHenever I get somebody one on one I want to switch to using single opponent spells.

As you will see I have an abundance of AOE spells (fire ball and death field) to damage the wolves. I alternate between fireball and death field because death field heals me and that's just my pattern... although the deck system doesn't get in the way. In fact it isn't stressing me out because I'm actually calmly talking while I'm creating the video this isn't a voice over.

when I go solo, I land one attack after another fire fist, and death touch over and over and over till the thing dies. NO DELAYS. The only delay is grouping up the creatures into a fireball attack radius.

SEE FOR YOURSELVES!!!



EDIT: I am over level 50 which is why I'm not running out of mana and getting eaten by these guys.

 

THATS what it was... lol glad you found the video too. i take it this has helped your frustrations, glad to hear it!

 

Ok, I hear you, but there's three points I differ strongly on.
First. I don't think the fact that programmers are tweaking their program is really all that special. Microsoft is still "tweaking" Windows, after all, and we all know what kind of results that has yielded (cough! Vista!). So while I agree that they are trying, I don't think that is really reason to celebrate.
Second. The devs can offer the option of greater game difficulty in many different ways, but I note that they balanced "traditional" controls difficulty by nerfing the crap out of their costs and cooldowns. So, now EVERYBODY gets to have greater combat difficulty... so that some people can feel more challenged? Here's a thought, if you want to feel more challenged, how about you go adventure in areas above your character progression or PvP solo? Or maybe just quest naked? As long as *I* don't have to join you when I want my gameplay at normal levels of difficulty.
Third. The point of improving the combat system is not to innovate, or to modify the difficulty of gameplay. Improving the combat system is supposed to make gameplay more FUN. So when I have to focus on staring at the random cards, it fails. Instantly, without recourse. When I get nerfed for locking my bar so that I cannot move while fighting, the system fails, instantly. Am I willing to wait for it to improve? Of course! But I'm not gonna jump on the bandwagon till I see it going somewhere I want to be.

Now, lastly, your post calls for "we all" to "just embrace the fact that it isn't going to go away"... Of COURSE it will go away. I believe that shortly after release the current system would tank the game and cause SotA to fail catastrophically! So it would go away! And of course, if they modify it significantly enough to make that not happen, then the current system that I so dislike will have gone away! Plus, if the devs scrap the idea entirely, it will go away! So yes, I believe it IS going to go away, and I don't feel the need to embrace it. I don't embrace POTENTIAL. I embrace RESULTS. And my girlfriend, but that's a different matter.

As for the rest of your point, the general theme, I understand your desire to see it through. I really do want to see what finished product results, I really do want to participate in the theorycrafting, and contribute. I'm just not interested in signing on to a contract that hasn't been written yet. When this system reveals it's final form, and lives up to the potential, then I'll praise it. Until then, I'll question it.