PoT's and perception of over power.

I'm noticing a concerning trend lately...

I am seeing more and more instances where people are looking at how much they can make in PoT's with rent and taxes etc. My concern with this is that this is starting to look like pay to win scenarios. The perception of this is that you can only really be powerful in this game if you own a PoT.

It's no secret that you will have a lot more gold in game due to these outside game influences. This puts players on an uneven playing field. It also brings in the shadow of favoritism, which I have seen grumblings about.

I am concerned how the new player is going to feel coming into this situation. I guess one could say these people paid thousands of dollars, which is great for development can't argue that. If you think coming into the game that you are already behind the eightball and you can never get in front of it, why would you stay?

Right now, PoT owners:

1) Will make more money then any other players in game.
2) Gain the ability to choose who can or cannot enter their PoT
3) Get to modify the map with placement for a PoT(kind of necessary but major game changing)


Where I'm sure there are some PoT owners who want to be able to just add to the game, I'm also sure that some see this as a leg up in game. I have seen one post where a PoT owner would also like a tax to any NPC transactions in game....thereby another gold increment.

Now, perception is key here. If people perceive this that is all it will take to make things bad. I won't lie I see favoritism on these forums(maybe just my perception of it, but regardless it may be true.)

At this point, not every player is entering the game at the same level. This is a concerning condition and something that should be addressed in some way. The problem with this is how do you do that?

I know some will say there is no "winning", however there is quite the perception of unfairness in game.

 

Why can't you just avoid POTs like you do PVP?

 

I think I would have steered away from PoT's in the first place. But that die is cast.

I'm not entirely sure there is a solution and think this could very well be a Achilles heal of the game.

I have seen posts on other forums bashing this very problem.

It's hard to expect the ones sitting on top to see it as an issue, so that also will be a problem.

 

As is their right. BTW I think a lot of POT owners will lose money on their "investment".

For some POT owners, I think it's less pay to win and more investment to create personal profit. Which is their right and nobody should be surprised this is happening.

That said there are tons of POT owners that aren't looking to make ANY income much less profit from their POTs. And there are many who are simply looking to defray the cost of ownership and might tax the occupants some to make sure the POT is maintained properly and can buy perks for the populace (oracle statue!).

I think what's developing here is pretty natural and there is a wide range of economic motivations among POT owners.

And for those players who don't have a lot/house tied to their pledge, it seems fair that some POT owners are charging real life $ to occupy their POT.

 

It's a kickstarter project.
It is pretty common that people that start earlier get more benefits. And that never was a secret. Actually the meltdown of pledges is pretty transparent. Same for the PoT.
I know where you are coming from in this topic but I don't see the problem.
Land has a limit. That limit was actually raised by the PoTs, don't forget that please. Land would be much more sparse if PoTs wouldn't exist.
PoT owners invested a lot of money into the PoT. I don't mind them to get a return in one way or another. If you want to live in that specific community x it's only fair that you do/pay/support/gift to it to keep it running smoothly.
I know it's not what you mean but what you are saying basically sounds like "I want the stuff of this guy and I want it from him for free".

Edit: Plus what Budner said.

 

He who has the gold makes the rules.

You are absolutely right though - There are quite a few POT owners, even a group of them now, who have openly stated that all they want to do is control the game economy and players. That is the wonderful effect of the game though, it is open enough to where even someone who comes in with nothing can still stand a chance against these people .Right now, you also have several of these POT owners whom also have TONS of deeds - Look forward to them buying up as much NPC lots as possible to drive people into POTS and then selling them high - That is just the economy to deal with. If Taxes are weak and lax (like 1% of a 800,000 town lot is just a peazly 8000 gold, while a 10% tax is 80,000 gold a month) then they will have an incentive to take up as much as possible. If you own more land and taxes increase ( a % increase per house at the same town) then maybe they will have to really take concern about how much land is possible without being taxed out of a lot themselves.

So a POT owner has gold and a town and power. Great. Guess what you have in common with them? You can still go to the same dungeons, skill up, and get the same resources that they have. If there is an area with PVP (Which will be a major defining feature to look forward to how it fleshes out) - Then those Owners and their friends will have to answer to the hoards of ruffians and scoundrels who would love to sink a sword into em and keep their grubby hands out of the dungeon.

I've talked to a quite a POT owners and have a personal list, separating out those who are complete for profit, those whom are wanting to profit while helping out others, and those that are gonna be pretty much hands off, letting anyone in their town and not worried about evicting them.

I would recommend you do the same or if you want, I'll post my list/opinions on the various owners... maybe even make a website... hmmmm

Let me get back to you in a bit.

 

I'll call BS on your first point.

It's an inaccurate blanket statement. Rift's End is a pay-it-forward PoT where residents have given funds to open up space for future residents. I started it with the initial Holdfast purchase. There is no revenue stream in this town and I see it as a massive expense. Setting up the town and getting all decorations for the town will require a lot of time and resources (granted we will do it as a guild). We look forward to rising to the challenge of having players want to come.

There are those that hope to make a profit and there are others like our group that will make that less possible when we are donating our cash and time to provide places for people to live in a like minded community.

 

It may be their "right" but it definitely falls under pay to win then. People will see that as such.

I also did mention there are some not looking to make a profit, but I would argue those are the minority.

It may be natural, but it puts every person not owning a PoT at a severe disadvantage in game...where they will always be below that other player.

Do you own a PoT?

It's not wanting something for free, it's wanting to know that someone can enter the game and expect to have the same chances as everyone else. This changes that formula.

A kickstarted game does not automatically mean give the best to one side and let the rest can play in their shadow.

I did mention that there were exceptions. I should have made that more clear.

 

I have a POT, as you know. I'm also charging taxes (in-game only), as you know. But I do see it as a problem that could use a good solution.

But as you know, this is how the game is being funded. People on "other forums" that yell about "pay2win111!!" are not funding this game. So that's also a problem that could use a good solution.

What I hear some people saying is that if only Portalarium would 1) make a good game and 2) go back in their time machine and only sell this game for $19.95, none of these problems would exist. To that I say...it's really hard for me to see your side of things since I don't live in crazy world, but send me a tin foil hat and your brochure and I'll ponder it some more.

Seriously though, I do see it as a problem and I often wonder what could be done to correct this so that 1. The game actually gets funded. 2. people that didn't pay but a fraction of what a POT owner did somehow feel like they are getting the same out of the game as the POT owner.

In my POT, I've tried very hard to make it a benefit to PVP players. Do they have to pay taxes to live there? ONLY IF THEY WANT TO LIVE THERE. I don't see anything at all unreasonable about that. Is it pay to win? Well depending on your definition, it certainly could be.

I mean, I have to manually collect the taxes on 524 lots. I have to attract people and retain those people. I have to handle disputes. I have to physically build and maintain the town. I have to put time and effort into this, all while I'm supposed to be playing the game. Don't cry for me Argentina, but it's not like I just handed Portalarium money and they gave me an in-game suitcase full of other players gold. There's a bit of work involved in this.

Look, I don't expect you or anyone else that would use "pay2win11!!!" as a strawman here to concede that maybe this isn't as big a problem to the game as it is to you personally. But I will say this, I don't think it's as big a problem to the game as it may be to you (and some others) on a personal level. I think when you look at it objectively (which let's face it, is hard to do if you're a POT owner and it's hard to do if you're a dev, and it's hard to do if you're neither) you'll find that this is much to do about nothing.

Either this game will be good or bad. That's all that matters.

 

@rune_74 yes I do own a small holdfast. And what I read when I read your post is 'i want your stuff for free'. The funny thing is you could actually get it from me for free. Because I am one of the PoT owners that is not going to charge you anything.
But me giving it freely and you 'demanding' it from me makes the difference.

Still I am not able to see the pay 2 win aspect. They will maybe (and only maybe) have more gold, ok. But that's about it. For this gold another person will get a lot that he/she otherwise wouldn't have because it wouldn't exist.

About kickstarter...in my experience that's all kickstarter is about. High risk, high reward. Lower risk later down the road, lower reward. I saw a lot of kickstarter projects that had much more gamebreaking benefits than SotA. Star Citizen being the most prominent of them.

 

And this is an important point I want to highlight.

If you pay $45 for this game, it should stand on its own. It should be $45 good! Meaning that it should be every bit as good as say Wasteland II. All the other stuff with POTs and whatever, should contribute to that. But I can't see how POTs are taking anything away from that.

If they put POTs in Wasteland II would it make Wasteland II a worse game? NO WAY. So for me, I just don't see where we're going with this.

 

I do believe the community needs someone who questions the power of POTs. I appreciate rune-74's dedication to that cause.

The biggest issue I see with POTs right now is that they will all look the same and that will make the game look horrible.

If POTs are being used to replace generic NPC towns then we should probably get rid of generic designs. We have gone down this road and so it may as well look good. I'm fairly confident there will be a number of town layouts but I do wonder sometimes. Where are the templates for the 7 different town sizes?

When rune_74 decides to visit a Holdfast like Lord Baldrith's Wizard Rest what will make it memorable and worth seeing vs. him/her wanting the option of turning off POTs on the overland map.

 

I have no problem with rune-74 asking the questions in the OP. Dissent is often a healthy part of giving feedback and challenging the game to do better.

But at the end of the day if the only conversation we're having is "I think it's pay to win" and "I don't think it's pay to win." That's not very helpful, that's not accomplishing anything.

 

Interesting thread.......

All I can say is that players spending literally thousands in some cases on PoTs are highly unlikely to see a monetary profit. If you were to sell/rent them out you need to find players willing to spend money and even then it could take years just to make your money back.

If PoT owners rented lots out for gold.....sure they could make a lot.......but just imagine how much time and hassle it would take keeping track/administering and collecting that gold................nightmare.

Ive made no secret that I plan to rent lots out in my PoTs......I never expect to make profit.......I don't even expect to break even. What I might do is assist in creating communities for players which in return I might receive some gold or $ that can be pumped back into the game itself.

If I was in this game to make money.....quite frankly I wouldn't be in this game.

 

@E n v y nailed it.

 

What disadvantage? having less gold? I really don't see any upside to owning a POT except for hey look I'm the mayor of this town.
I mean it's just housing... wont really help you kill people/creatures
For me Pay to win has always been when you can buy gear or anything else that might give you the upper hand in a fight
having a flashy house that just sits there doesn't seem that pay to win to me. Banning people would only make those banned people not able to spend money on your vendors.. there is nothing to hunt in a POT and no resources

 

Actually, if what you got was "I want your stuff for free" then I failed at getting my message across....

Perhaps a better analogy would be, "I don't think that power should ever have been given to the player outside the game."

Players coming in will look at this as a problem, a problem they can never fix.

I'm hoping it doesn't just go to pay to win arguments. But do note, that the most vocal saying it isn't a problem are those that own PoT's.

You may not make your real world money back, but you will make a lot of money. That will give you a huge advantage in game. Regardless of administration to collect the coin, you will be collecting coin. This isn't about making your Real world cash back, this is about in game. I'm sure most don't believe they will make real world money back.

This too...there is no reason to visit these towns unless they have something that sets them apart...I'm sure some will have some great RP events or whatnot, but those won't be the average I believe. I actually think turning off PoT's will be a thing some would want.

In game gold can buy you that gear

 

The only thing in this game I believe is actually "pay to win" is the prosperity and artisan crafting tools and the crafting tables. They don't lose durability and in the case of the prosperity tools they may get a small bonus.

These are the items that I feel people are right to comment on. But the other stuff, having a big house and having a town that generates no wealth without putting tons of work in, that's not pay to win.

 

Regardless of the amount of time you put into your town, you can rent those lots and have a large amount of gold to start. It is almost the same as buying gold, except it will replenish every month.

 

@rune_74 that's why I said in the beginning I know that's not what you mean but it sounds like that.

You know, I just doubt that PoT owners will have a bigger revenue or more power than (e.g.) leaders of those massive guilds out there. But nobody doubts that the politicking of these massive guilds is part of the meta game. And they are really able to influence the game for new players. Be it good or bad.