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R9 Horrible.

Discussion in 'Release 9 Feedback' started by Poor game design, Aug 23, 2014.

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  1. docdoom77

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    Not to create an argument, but I would just like to point out that I'm in exactly the opposite camp. You say "no required reagents is a deal-breaker." For me: absolutely required reagents would be a deal breaker. I can't think of a more un-fun way to implement magic. I think the proposed system is the best compromise they could come up with for people who think reagents are a must and people who would rather not have them at all.

    As for the release: I also stopped playing after about an hour. Way too frustrating. I didn't even get to test the combat. So there's some common ground. :p
     
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  2. Drocis the Devious

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    I went back today and played long enough to see Andoris and fool around with the magic system a bit more.

    Three things:

    1) Andoris looks good. It's a shame the central keep was off limits for this episode. Running into watchers and getting stuck is annoying.
    2) The magic system without reagents is worse when you're using reagents and then you run out. First, I can't really tell the difference between having reagents and not (it seems only mildly more powerful to have reagnets). I know it's probably like twice as powerful, but when you're talking about a 50% increase that results in damage of 4 verses damage of 2....who cares? Second, Staves and Wands are grossly overpowered as they're essentially a 2nd ranged attack that is FREE and unlimited. If you're talking about PVE then you just stand on a rock and kill everything around you because they can't really do anything but stand there and get beat on. If you're talking about PVP then it becomes essential to have this 2nd ranged attack.
    3) If I'm in a dark cave (I like that they're dark btw, I think the lighting has come a long way since the beginning releases) then the last thing you want to do is fumble around and find that you're now magically being transported to a new scene. You have to give players some kind of indication or pop-up that they're going to enter a new scene and give them the ability to avoid that in some way. I can't tell you how many times I was teleported around the game not having any idea where I was or why I was going there. Very annoying.

    In closing, R9 was disappointing for me. I'm a little concerned that too much is being added too quickly and we're seeing less balance in combat and less functional areas to explore. Based on these experiences it seems to me like you guys (the devs) are easily another year away from launch. I can't imagine that we're going to be ready for Alpha let alone Beta before the end of this year. And that's FINE, I have no complaints about that. But it makes me wonder what the rush is to put some of this stuff into the game when the other stuff is so clearly unbalanced and buggy.
     
  3. Kether

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    I agree here, this release feels rushed to me, with too many new things added and very few issues from R8 actually addressed. Fortunately R10 is a "polish release", meaning that they're (supposedly) not going to add new features and focus on polishing and fixing things. Let's hope they put all the feedback we're providing all over the forums to use then.

    About the reagents thing... I don't advocate any particular system but I must say I not quite like the current one too. I'd prefer either a fully "no-reagents" or a fully "reagentes required" one... I'm pretty sure there even can be a mixed approach that works. But the current one feels too half-hearthed.
     
  4. Greymarch

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    I guess to touch on the reagents system for me is an even more involved issue that goes to the entire card/deck/slots combat aspect of them. My preference in games is for magic to be kind of a big deal. I want it to be harder to get, harder to use and have more spectacular effects than normal mundane skills would have. So in Ultima for example I was totally fine with spells costing reagents because they either did things than you couldn't do otherwise, or had a much greater effect than a melee or archery attack.

    In this (and pretty much all MMOs really) spell are just another attack button, pretty much weighted equally with any other attack. And it really comes down to balance issues. If spells were rare and super powerful it's not fair to non-mages to just get owned by wizards all the time before you can even get to them. If spells are just another attack then a lot of their flavour is gone and you're just playing a re-skinned archer (which was partially my feel in D&D 4E but that's a big tangent). It looks to me that in name of balance in Shroud spells are basically just another glyph to be thrown into your deck that you can spam out (good draws willing).

    Since mechanically there is so little difference between glyphs being drawn and used, why put such an additional restriction on spells? Sure archery needs arrows, but arrows don't cost 10 gold each. Having a weakened effect from spells is a compromise but I think a compromise that needs to be made.

    I'd personally prefer spells to be more special and require reagents, but with the entire combat system as a whole looked at, I don't know if that's realistically going to happen.
     
  5. Isaiah

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    REALLY? why are they doing that? Bows don't shoot when there is no more arrows. Why should people have a wand or rod that is an auto attack? If a wand or a rod has an attack it should use focus, and it should be some kind of real magic.

    If wands and rods shoot this magic ray, why can't we cast that same magic ray without a wand or rod? What is this magic ray? I would rather the wand or rod just supplement the magic that already exists. The wands should be able to fire actual spells rather than just rays of damage per second.
     
  6. Greymarch

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    Or have a wand tree to spend points on.
     
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  7. Isaiah

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    I would be for this. Although that would mean that wands should be able to do more than just a quick zap. It should be influenced by the schools of magic you use. In effect making a different kind of mage.
     
  8. Greymarch

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    Maybe each spell tree could have a wand ability in it instead?
     
  9. Isaiah

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    What if they developed wands over time, and released a wand/rod skill tree that allows you to cast of each spell school using a wand based casting vs a purely focused based casting? The ability to cast spells faster and more reliable, but with the drawback of having to manage how many spells you cast over a period of time... or something like that.

    In essence use the charges dynamically. If the wand has 5 charges, then you can cast spells up to 4 charges in a given time frame, but if you hit the 5th charge the wand becomes inert until it dissipates the residual power. The wand will constantly discharge the static energy at a certain rate while you are casting spells. So you can cast spells faster and more reliably, but you have to make sure not to over use the wand too fast. So it would be a more timing based spell casting rather than a focus based spell casting. Although I think it should still use focus regardless. The only bonus is the speed and reliability of spells. I see this being helpful for chaos magic especially since it is a bit unstable.

    So I think I would rather see a single wand/rod skill tree, that only changes the way you cast spells while you have a wand or rod equipped. That way pure spell casters would have a way to cast better than a hybrid that uses a weapon created to do physical damage.
     
  10. Borg

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    How funny....

    I was playing the whole weekend...

    I saw Ardoris.
    I could play pve & pvp for hours, test Deck system and learn how to use it.
    I had fun pvping.
    I was teleported to places I've never seen before.

    Best release to date.

    The only problem is that I had a nightmare in the night from Friday to Saturday.
    In my dream I was going to open the fridge, just to get some milk and I got this message "Loading Fridge Scene please wait........o_O"
     
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  11. Drocis the Devious

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    Congrats on having a great weekend of playing, Borg.
     
  12. Wagram

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    Will they be introducing Magic bows no arrows needed just flame and lightning arrows and Magic swords that shoot fireballs no different to a wand/stave.
    Wands should be crafted and need the required reagents to load the charges . Why would you have the powers and knowledge to use anything dropped by another creature it would surely have a magic lock placed upon it. Dropped wands should also need identifying by a Mage in a Town you then get them disarmed and gain the reagents from any remaining charges. Is there no ID skill in SotA
     
  13. Drocis the Devious

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    I don't know about magic bows. I assume they'll eventually be in the game. What is surprising to me at this point is that I'm able to use Death magic verses Skeletons and other undead. Perhaps this is something they plan to get to down the road, but for right now it seems really odd.
     
  14. Bulveigh

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    I think you are way to "emotional" for a alpha...

    It is normal that it is completely unbalanced and bugged. And it is normal two, that they add new features and wait for good feedback to verify if it is good the way they add it, or not..

    and noone says a alpha has to be fun all the time! Every game has a "bad release 9" in its alpha process...



    IMO it is really to early to judge the reagent cost problem. The combat system is incredible inbalanced. And we dont have to do anythign to get all the spells.
     
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  15. Womby

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    Scene changes are marked by torches that have a bluish/purple flame, as opposed to the normal yellow flame. (This was documented in the release notes, BTW.)

    I share your displeasure at the changes to the Kingsport sewers. I hope that is not permanent.
     
  16. Lord_Darkmoon

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    I think it would be cool if the transition to another place would be accompanied by a voice (maybe Bill Johnson to bring back memories of Ultima 7-9). If you leave for an unknown area, the voice could say "You are now leaving for unknown realms". And if you know where this transition leads to (maybe you have been there before), the voice says "You are now leaving for the Ravensmoor depths" or whereever this leads to.
     
  17. Lord Baldrith

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    I'm with you Baron Dracis. Regents should be required to cast in my opinion too...Hoping that will become part of the game.

    A few of my own beefs with r9:

    Combos were not dynamic...Pushing r to get started on a combo (and not casting while trying to create a combo) seemed clunky and way too slow for a mage needing spells to be going going going not waiting for many button pushes and hoping the choices were correct.
    No new crafting/harvesting...Hey I live for crafting/harvesting! Ready for some more excitement in crafting...pretty please?

    I just did some 'other' beta testing most the weekend hehe.
     
  18. redfish

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    Yea, like I said in the other thread, the big issue is that if magic and weapon-use are treated the same way in the game they in the end just might seem like different flavors of the same thing, and not different things. I'd also want devs to think about issues around using bows at point-blank range, to force players (and NPCs) to put away their bows or keep a distance in order to use them effectively. Same balances on ranged magic spells.

    If reagents were required, but magic were made more powerful than it currently is (given the proper reagents), that would be a good trade-off in my mind, and a better way to balance the issues.
     
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  19. Sarg

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    I have a feeling that was just a mistake. Entering the Kingsport Sewer seemed to cause this weird teleporting all over the place "bug". I can't imagine that behavior was intentional.
     
  20. Lord Andernut

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    I think you're over-simplifying this. They've just been introduced and can be modified so anger seems out of place. They can also adjust that effectiveness. What if no reagents meant you only have a 20%, 10%, 5% or even 1% chance to cast your spell? What if it used 10 times the focus without reagents so you run out of focus very quickly?

    I think there are many options available that will make reagents feel necessary within the current system they have introduced. They've introduced a system but they haven't had time to play around with it. I just feel rage is not required for this.
     
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