Random Discussion About Chris' Daily Blog

Discussion in 'Developer Depot' started by Chris, Apr 5, 2017.

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  1. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    What a horrible world that will be when the type of recreational games we can play are controlled by law. UO would be illegal and shut down by the state. No RPing a thief in a virtual world. Soonafter, I expect all MMO players will be mandated to participate in dance parties, and prevailing setback ordinances will apply to virtual properties.

    I hope we'll eventually have an in-game justice system, at any rate, whete thieves and others will get a bounty on their head, giving the victim a good chance to get back his item, eithet by themselves, or with the help of playet bounty hunters.
     
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  2. Beaumaris

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    I agree, that's scary. And what will be next? The elimination of player-run vendors by NPC Oracle drones that deliver anything we want for free shipping with a Oracle Prime membership? Gosh, we better enjoy this game while we can! :)

    On a brighter note, glad to see some changes to resistances. I never quite got how attunement translated to resistances. Maybe this will make it a little more intuitive.
     
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  3. Andartianna

    Andartianna Avatar

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    You can RP a thief against NPCs who are not real people. Vitual world is a about fantasy sure but it's not a fantasy about how much real life money items are worth.
     
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  4. Ravicus Domdred

    Ravicus Domdred Avatar

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    Oh the joys of RMT lol.
     
  5. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    Can NPCs ever steal from a player? I need to know the rules so I don't ever make a game where the story is illegal.
     
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  6. Ancev

    Ancev Bug Hunter

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    I'm in favor of a perma flagging system for thieves - perhaps the thief could manage their perma flags through an Atonement system and Oracle conversation interface. Initially I thought the thief should be able to pick and choose which players they could atone for their misdeeds (individually removing their perma flag from specific players by donating gold, items or completing non-xp quests for the Oracle) but it's probably better if the Oracle decides who's perma flag gets cleared. The perma flag could also get cleared if the thief is killed via a bounty system or a death resulting in an attack from the theft victim. Basically the theft victim would be able to get the jump on the thief using the perma flag system.

    If the thief asks for protection from the Oracle, they will be unflagged to all players they haven't stolen from. The thief's name would show up in the /who list like normal. But if there is a theft victim in the scene with them, perhaps the thief would show up as a red ? in the /who list, or their name is simply highlighted in red to the theft victim. I'm more in favor of the red ?. Once the theft victim locates the thief, they'll see the thief has a pvp flag on (but only to them) and attacking the thief will reveal the pvp flag for all other players in the zone. Too punitive?

    As far as bounty hunters, it might be cool if there were players and NPC's in the same type of bounty hunting guild to keep thieves on their toes. Perhaps a theft victim could defer their perma flag to the bounty hunter guild and this would be assigned randomly.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
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  7. Jens_T

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    I guess that is the downside of introducing real money worth into games. If digital assets were not considered assets but fluff and had no value I doubt the discussion about implementing real world laws would be that relevant. By bringing RMT / digital assets into gaming traditional designs and expectations from the “good old days of innocent gaming” might not be fully applicable anymore.
     
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  8. Jaanelle DeJure

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    For sure- it is good business practice to consider as many contingencies as you can. And I get that you are looking out for what you consider to be the best interests of the game.

    Having a benefit to both sides would be reciprocal. Consent is given when the user clicks "Log In" and the Instructions are disclosed which state the parameters of the game.

    Any player is free to keep open the "Nearby Players" window which will indicate immediately if another flagged player enters a scene. They can choose whether to stay, to leave, or to change modes. In addition, there are means by which a player can detect or reveal other players who are hidden. And actually, a player has to be particularly "not engaged" in order to be susceptible to being pickpocketed, as the skill takes very long to deploy.

    I think you are really stretching the definition of digital assets. If you go before a judge claiming that somebody "stole your digital assets" they are going to be thinking something along the lines of a digital work of art. So... I mean... it's arguable sure but then again you'd actually to have to get a judge to hear the case in the first place.

    Certainly, the proposed value of a Warlock Chain will fall under the jurisdiction of a small claims court.

    I mean- go for it if that's what you're into. But I don't think the overall consensus of opinion is in your favor on that one.

    If you have any references to case law where rulings have favored your definition of "digital assets" I would love to take a look at what the judges had to say.

    I don't think I understand what you mean. Are you saying that all of the jurisdictions encompassing the entire globe are going to pass such laws? That's a whole lotta people who have to get on board.

    As for the "matter of time"... how much time do you think before this sea change occurs? Before Launch? :D
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  9. Rada Torment

    Rada Torment Community Ambassador (ES)

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    Shocked with some of the changes, can't wait to see them ingame.

    Good job @Chris and the rest of the team!
     
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  10. Andartianna

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    You can not consent to an action that is illegal. That is like saying " I consented to **** by wearing a sexy outfit."
    This is incorrect nearby player menu does not work in pvp zones.
    I specifically said that this was concerning future case laws and laws not adjudicated yet.
    It only takes one jurisdiction to pass a law for them to effect global companies. Or one court case to go through in favor of the laws. If you look at the repercussions of the gambling laws effecting loot boxes in Europe after one court ruled against them multiple lawsuits were filed against the companies that have them. It does not take a mountain of time to disable a skill until they make it acceptable. Like I already suggest they can turn it towards NPCs which have non of the legal issues surrounding them. This is also why many games don't have assets taken from players in theft or pvp. They instead have a system that rewards the player directly from wining fights. Such as World of Warcraft that gives tokens.
     
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  11. Elnoth

    Elnoth Bug Hunter

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    You might be interested in the history of pinball machines, particularly with regards to "free games" aka popping the machine. In fact, between 1940 and 1976 pinball machines were illegal in New York City and police and officials used to do raids and smash them up with sledgehammers

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinball#Pinball_and_gambling
     
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  12. Ravicus Domdred

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    you consented to it by flagging for pvp. You know the risks. Besides you can pay the ransom.
     
  13. Andartianna

    Andartianna Avatar

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    Again you can't consent to illegal actions.
     
  14. Halvard

    Halvard Avatar

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    You need to go out more... What illegal actions? Are you from another planet? I was gonna say high but im high all the time but his last page (your words only) have baffeled me so much Im not sure how to describe it. Next time you kill someone in game or help your friend I want you to go to the police and request be put in jail for life.
    Have a good day or for you thats probably illgeal so have a bad day... Geeesh haha
     
  15. Ravicus Domdred

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    sorry, I feel you are very wrong on this issue. Do not flag. Flagging is consent. This is a consensual game. If you do not give your consent then you would not lose property.
     
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  16. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    But we're not even talking about protecting people, we're now saying a person can't choose to play the type of game he wants to.

    Look, a lot of the assumptions behind this discussion are so off base....

    The only reason lootboxes are even under legal scrutiny is because those lootboxes are purchased from the developer, and thus are a commercial transaction. Purchased items in this game are not lootable. So we're talking now about players purchasing items from other players, which is not a commercial transaction. And you might as well take this logic to its conclusion and say item durability takes away its RMT value and should be made illegal. Theft is a game mechanic, durability is another one.

    Second, it imposes such a narrow vision of what games can be, and wants to limit all games to that. Lets say I eant to create a multiplayer version of Thief: The Dark Project, and advertise everywhere the game is about stealing from other players. Someone who logs into that game isn't consenting to be solen from? Come on. And I mentioned being stolen from by an NPC because that's a legitimate way to tell a story. But it really does seem some players ideas of what an MMO has to be is a game about grinding, socializing, and RMT, and any game that is about something else shouldn't exist, because a player can't possibly truly consent to it. So forget an MMO version of Thief, an MMO has to be about RMT. (What is SotA? Whatever the devs decide, as long as players know what they're getting into because the game makes it clear to them)

    So I'm sorry in beimg a bit strong in some of my replies, but in this way the discussion seems less about protecting people and more about limiting the types of games people can choose to play.
     
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  17. Rada Torment

    Rada Torment Community Ambassador (ES)

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    @Andartianna I respect you and all your opinions but I sincerely think you are wrong on this one.

    First of all, there is no need to talk about RMT stuff or laws, its all more simple than that. This game has been designed to offer a pvp system with partial-loot (like EVE Online), and I'm really sure this will not be changed. We are many players happy with it.

    And second and important to note, the pvp is optional, so if any of you don't like the pvp this game offers, I would recommend to stay away from it. We are not forced because SotA is not a full-pvp MMO. Maybe sounds a bit extreme but just because we don't like something we can't try to force them to change it, the system is what they always told us it would be, and the ransom mechanics is part of it since beginning. When we understand this, there is not space for laws or the need of think there is something bad behind pixels just because we can get money from them, this is a game and for now, all they have is legal (I'm aware of this topic being a EU player).

    The perfect scenario for all of us? some pvp maps without loot mechanics designed for casual pvpers? who knows, there are always options and more options are alwaus good :)

    Agree.
     
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  18. Andartianna

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    Again not talking about fighting pvp. That would technically fall under the gambling laws as it's a contest of chance. I'm talking about pick pocket specifically. There are many players who are not happy with pick pocket. PVP is only optional if you don't want to pvp. If you want to fight other players you don't have an option to not be exposed to pick pocket. Removing the player to player loss exposure would fix the problem. If the system gave something then that would take care of the problem.
     
  19. Jaanelle DeJure

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    That is false equivocation. Certainly, you wouldn't consider bringing murder charges against another player that killed your Avatar in game. Or would you? :eek:

    Moreover- I am not sure you are understanding what the law already says. When you log into a game server like Shroud of the Avatar, you are logging into computer that is owned and operated by Portalarium. Your Avatar does not belong to you. It belongs to Portalarium. And therefore, anything that "belongs" to your Avatar also "belongs" to Portalarium.

    In actuality, what you perceive as a Warlock Chain is some piece of code, that is owned and operated by Portalarium. They may do with it as they please.

    Think about this... if Portalarium decided to pull the plug on the project and permanently shut down the server, do you think any court would grant you compensation for loss of your "digital assets"?

    Now... if Portalarium made a game where when you were down in the mines "mining" you actually chose to lend Portalarium some of the hashing power of your GPU in exchange for tokens that you could trade outside in the real world. I do think that would be considered a digital asset. And I do think things like that are coming.

    But I'm still not convinced that any court of competent jurisdiction would rule that a Warlock Chain is a "digital asset". At least not in the timeframe that would encompass the life of this game.

    Now... whether the Pickpocketing system is a good idea... that's a totally different discussion.

    Yes and no. For example, there's a reason why almost every credit card company is located in Wilmington, DE.

    The effect I think you are referring to more often has something to do with standards and compliance. So, for example, if the State of California declares that all automobiles must meet a certain "emissions standard" then it sort of de facto becomes the national standard for economic reasons.

    What we are talking about here falls under the purview of contract law. And pretty much as a citizen of the USA, you are free to contract with entities, such as Portalarium, to just about any sort of terms they like. And if you don't like their terms, you are free to contract with some other entity that offers terms that you prefer.

    You are also free to set your own terms. Though currently not very practical, I believe technology is emerging that will soon make it a lot easier to get what you want without having to adhere to very one-sided contracts with terms you don't like. But I really don't think the solution you are really seeking will come from the court system, sorry.

    Yeah, I mean... that may very well be a better idea, all things considered. But I think at the end of the day, the economics of the situation can bear all of that out. If people prefer games with those features you mentioned, then they will choose to play those, and not Shroud of the Avatar.

    Guess we will just have to agree to disagree unless or until all those laws change, as you are predicting.

    As for me, I actually did have an entire set of Founder gear stolen from a chest and sold on this very forum. While I would probably not be too welcoming of this person in my party or guild, I'd prefer to keep my beef in-game so to speak. The way I see it... if the poor sop is that hard up for cash, he is welcome to it. But truth be told, there are a lot better ways to make a lot more money than that. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
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  20. Ancev

    Ancev Bug Hunter

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    What's the difference between a player res killing you and collecting all the ransoms while you're afk cooking dinner, vs a thief stealing all your items in the same scenario? The items are both being selected randomly. In both cases you're at fault for being afk with a pvp flag on.

    Thieves can be detected in the game using in-game skills. Literally any AoE skill, especially fire. Body slam spam is another method. Detect Hidden.. although I haven't had much success with it. Once you know the thief's name, there are ways to figure out where that player is using the friends list, or social networking/engineering.

    I'm still in favor of a Tracking (select the ? and you get a directional arrow) and anti-tracking (reverts your avatar's name from being listed in the /who list back to a ?) skill.
     
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