Random Discussion About Chris' Daily Blog

Discussion in 'Developer Depot' started by Chris, Apr 5, 2017.

  1. Mac2

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    I can pay myself? I don't got time LOL.
     
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  2. Mac2

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    Yep ever since persistence even before death decay was part of the game, cuz I knew about the maintain setting and therefore knew the death decay was going to be something in the future, I practiced not dying. Just ask lady cind or anyone I was with in the beginning how many times I would yell, RUN!!!!!. I think I made it about 2 months after persistence before my first death.
     
  3. Cryodacry

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    Urmm i don't see how i was dodging any points ... i was just pointing out your XP calc was WAY WAY WAY wrong .... I am a full advocate of death decay .... i am pretty public about that ... you just didn't believe us when we said we were loosing so much xp on death ....
     
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  4. Barugon

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    I'm quoting this here because there seems to be some confusion about it:
     
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  5. Toadster

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    Wow... I am impressed you were so convincing.
     
  6. Jaanelle DeJure

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    Sorry- a misunderstanding. I believe you. I don't believe somebody who says they lose 250K, but it takes them 2-3 hours to regain it back. Or rather- if they are really losing 250K, but can't earn it back in 20-30 minutes, then they aren't playing the game very intelligently.
     
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  7. Toadster

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    What about people that just refuse to
    Follow the template of the day and would prefer to play in a classless system where they could play the character they want. Could be viable enough to make them that experience ove years but as a solo player they would be gaining and restocking EXP a lot slower than those who are maximizing DPS only.

    Does that make sense? not everyone in this game plays just to advance whatever OP skill is on the table fore PVP. There are a lot of other people that play a style or build based on what they want not on what is best. Unfortunately, a lot of game mechanics and decisions are being based on players that min/max their way to the top and adjust with every nerf/change.
     
  8. Retro

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    @Chris Still waiting patiently :rolleyes:
     
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  9. Jaanelle DeJure

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    Of course... that's how I play! ;) I gather or grow all of my own regs/resources because Jaan is a Druidess. I fish a lot- or at least used to. I spend tons of time exploring in lower level zones because I enjoy understanding them very deeply, and want to be able to guide and help out new players with similar playstyles to my own once Launch hits. And by "help" I mean teaching them how to be self-sufficient and not twinking them out with endgame gear and inviting them out to the monkey room and CPs with me and my guildies.

    And since I am playing the character I want to play, I don't bother to waste my time overleveling skills, especially ones that I don't use. In fact, I've found it completely unnecessary to level any skill past 80 for PvE, although I do plan to GM a few things for RP and mentorship purposes. While I've experimented around a lot with ooc skills in order to help test the game, with Launch on the horizon I've spent the better part of this last release unlearning everything that doesn't fit Jaan's build from a RP perspective.

    My decay on first death is currently just over 10K. Super manageable. It takes me less than 10 minutes to recover in solo play. Which is good, because I still do a lot of stupid things like accidentally jump too far down cliffs, run around pretty much 100% of the time flagged for pvp (Jaan refuses to accept the Oracle's mafia-like "protection"), and attempt to solo bosses that I know I shouldn't.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
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  10. Toadster

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    That does explain a lot but I am curious why you are so for decay when it really has no impact on how you want to play your character? But, has huge impacts to players playing a different way than that.
     
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  11. Jaanelle DeJure

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    Huh? Maybe you haven't been reading my text walls. Lol :D Well here's another one for ya.

    I am not "so for decay" actually at one point a few pages back I suggested scrapping it entirely. But I'm not totally against it either.

    I do think that death should have a meaningful consequence, and by that I mean have some kind of "sting" to it. Something should be lost or else it is pointless to even have a death mechanic.

    It really all boils down to two resources: time and money. XP is just a proxy for time. And money/gold really just boils down to time also.

    I'd support a mechanism to be able to purchase something (with igg) to mitigate or eliminate decay, but people would still have to take time to get the gold anyway, so what would be the difference except it would give the anti-RMT crowd another reason to pitch a fit?

    I'd also support instead of losing XP outright, that players get a slowdown of how much XP they can earn. But really in the end, you must see that it is all the same. It would just be the same number applied against future earnings instead of past earnings. I think it might be more palatable for certain players, but underneath the hood, there would be no substantial difference between the two methods, or any other method really.

    Any game anywhere that has any sort of "death" mechanism sets the player back in time and recapitulate some of the game. If it's the sort of game where you have to go back to the beginning of the level, or the last save point, that's basically the same thing as losing XP in an RPG.

    There's ultimately nothing else to "take" from a player except time.

    In this case, the aim appears to be to set a player back around 20-30 minutes. I really don't see why that is a big problem.

    You say it has a huge impact on players who play differently, but I really don't understand what those use cases look like.

    I'm totally open to learning, but frankly I haven't seen anybody against it who doesn't seem to just have worked themselves into an emotional tizzy over it, or who has married themselves to some sort of ideology that doesn't appear to have a rational foundation other than they somehow got the idea in their head that they should never lose anything when playing a game.

    Which is why I keep asking those who are adamantly opposed to decay to suggest what else they would be willing to lose upon death, but they never seem to have an answer, and just throw up some indignant line about how they also shouldn't be "forced" to come up with an alternative.

    But I think if they allowed themselves to just calm the eff down for a minute and think rationally, they'd realize the simple truth- there is no alternative.

    Sure you could dress it up differently, or change the name of what you call it, but that's all just surface stuff. In the end, it all boils down to losing time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
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  12. Numa

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    Just log into MP for 1 minute and that 10k XP loss will be fully recovered :)
     
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  13. Halfwitte

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    @Chris are the new artifacts on the QA now?
     
  14. Jaanelle DeJure

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    Yup, exactly! Which I believe is exactly in alignment with the intent. The decay mechanic is actually trivial to players unless or until they start GMing skills.

    And I mean... really... let's maintain some semblance of RPG in this MMORPG. Should characters running around with the title of "Grandmaster" really be dying a lot like a bunch of doofuses?

    In real life... what would you think of somebody who called themselves a "Grandmaster" but couldn't tell when they were overstepping their bounds or exceeding their true skill level?

    Some try to claim that the decay mechanic prohibits them from taking risks... but really? I mean... really? So again somebody is a "Grandmaster" XYZ but they don't know how or when to escape from a battle if they get in over their head? :rolleyes:

    It's as @Mac2 said:
    A true "Grandmaster" knows when to retreat from battle. Knows when to be cautious. Knows when to RUN!!!!!

    Only a poseur would fling themselves all kamikaze-like into unknown territory, get in over their heads, fail to retreat in time, and then cry like a baby because they lost some XP when they died.

    Only somebody who twinked their way into "Grandmaster" status would not be able to recover the XP they lost from decay within 20-30 minutes. A player who earned it... who really earned that title of "Grandmaster" should not be scared of losing 1/4 million XP.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
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  15. Cora Cuz'avich

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    But does a grandmaster know when to fold them?
     
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  16. redfish

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    @Jaanelle DeJure

    Oh but you don't need to have a lot of skill to get GM, just grind alot in a zone below your Adv level, kill green mobs. ;)

    But I have found decay relatively trivial myself even with many GMs. I've got to lev 93 or such without worrying about dying. All of my Blades skills are GM, I think most Light Armor, I don't remember where my Shields is at, some Subterfuge and Tactics (Cant check online atm).

    Avoiding death isn't too hard either, though a lot of the tricks in some areas just involve non-RP solutions like hiding behind the scene entry area or finding a safe rock to stand on and watching all the mobs act like you turned invisible.

    Still, recovering requires you put in grind time, which not everybody likes.
     
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  17. Jaanelle DeJure

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    lolol @redfish... Ah... yesss.. of course! Some people want a MMORPG with exactly 0% grind.

    In fact, they want to log in for the first time, be handed a lot deed and home of their choosing, a full set of endgame gear, and get insta-GM in all the skills... ALL OF THEM mind you cause God-forbid they have to pick and choose in ANY way. And then they want a 100% guarantee that no matter WHAT they do, nothing can EVER be taken away from them or lost. Yup. Their gear should NEVER wear down or *gasp* break or require repair. And if they want to craft something, they should be able to just have all the mats delivered right to their doorstep for FREE. And they should be able to pick EXACTLY what kind of stats they get on the gear. 100%. They should NEVER EVER fail or have their gear break. Cause... who likes to be FORCED to fail? I mean... yeah if some people like failing, maybe they can set a voluntary flag for fail chance, but to FORCE it on everybody would be just... barbaric! It should be ILLEGAL, if you ask me!

    Wow... yes of course that kind of game sounds SUPER FUN!!! Definitely have that kind of mass market appeal that Portalarium is going for. I'm quite CERTAIN that millions and millions of people will be falling all over themselves to play a game like that. Because we all know that NOBODY wants to play a game where there are winners and losers. I DEFINITELY know because all three of my friends here in my mom's basement agree with me, so I would say that makes it pretty obvious that EVERYBODY EVERYWHERE feels exactly the same way I do.

    Oh yes... a game like that is going to make so much money they won't know what to DO with it all... wait what's that you say? Oh yes of course, how insensitive and one-percenter of me to talk about making money from a gaming business. There should be absolutely NO contamination of the game with ANY kind of dirty, filthy, evil, nasssssssty, money. Actually, people shouldn't have to pay for anything, EVER. But DEFINITELY not for games. Yup, I'm thinking the only game worth playing is one where the entire development team just works for free out of the kindness of their hearts. Because, let's all be honest, who's got time to WORK when we are so busy gaming?

    This is going to be AWESOME, you guys! So excited!!!!! Really glad we had this little talk...
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
  18. redfish

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    @Jaanelle DeJure

    Hmm yea some people want everything right away, but there's also a difference between working towards goals and grinding, too :D I think people's perceptions are right that a lot of the gameplay can feel repetitive and mindless.

    So, if I want to earn back lost XP we're generally talking about going around in circles for x amount of time mashing buttons farming mobs.

    That might be a short amount of time or a longer amount of time. Personally, I've been grinding for gold (because I've needed to earn gold) and I generally don't have to worry about XP grinding because I'm doing gold grinding for enough time in a play session that I'm gaining the XP along the way.

    But lets say I'm a different player and am not grinding for stuff but want to do some stuff with friends once in a while, spend some time exploring and some time fighting. Then dying may be a thing I suddenly have to deal with and I don't want to spend extra time grinding. :/ So I kind of do get it.
     
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  19. majoria70

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    @Chris I see on QA that we now have the specializations which will give whatever bonuses and negatives as designed now.

    My question is will we later see the trees we choose open up to new skills? I hope we don't stop here so specializing can get even more interesting later.
     
  20. Jaanelle DeJure

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    I do agree there are elements of the gameplay that feel too grindy. As I've mentioned, I think a great way to deal with that is to turn up the RNG and put in some code to make things less predictable. But that doesn't seem to be a very popular idea. I dunno, kind of seems like one of those "have your cake and eat it too" things. People don't want to grind, but they also want gameplay to be predictable.

    I also tend to think a lot of it has to do with choices players make that they are not acknowledging are actual choices. I mean- nobody is really being forced to do the monkey room, right? Nobody is being forced to do a thousand loops around Ulfheim, DRW, or Crag Foothills. People are choosing to do that. Which is fine, but then to turn around and complain it is grindy? Nahhhh I'm callin' bullshit.

    There are hundreds of adventure scenes to play in, and all of them offer gold and XP. There isn't a rule that says players have to always take the most efficient path to get whatever it is they are looking for.

    That's one option. Or you could just keep playing the game. As long as you're killing stuff or completing quests, you're earning XP right? You also have the ability to bank enough XP in your pool such that if you croak, it's not critical that you immediately go out and earn the XP back.

    And the more thoughtfully you play, generally the shorter amount of time you will need to recover. First of all, you will die less often. Secondly, you will realize (though it sounds like you already do) that leveling skills beyond the minimum necessary to get the job done is a horrible waste of time.

    I've seen more than a few comments suggestive that some players are putting in efforts to GM certain skills without even realizing that those skills aren't getting any more effective, but only increasing in duration. Like really? 2-4 mil deep into a skill and haven't read the tooltip, eh there buddy?

    I dunno about you, but if I am going to take the time to GM a skill I'm gonna take a few extra minutes on the front end to make sure that the effectiveness gain is gonna be worth the time and XP needed to level it in the first place, as well as the additional decay cost.

    For example, let's look at Healing Burst.

    At level 80 , 8.1% chance to consume reagents, radius 6.9, recover 31-43 health.
    At level 100, 8.1% chance to consume reagents, radius 6.9, recover 33-46 health.

    XP cost of leveling Healing Burst from 80-GM: 2,815,104. Additional max decay incurred: 2449. Totally not worth it, amirite?

    Well now that's using your noggin! ;) And I think kind of supports my point.

    Tell me again why I should feel sorry for players who choose not to use their brains when making character development decisions..? This is a game that requires a great deal of strategy to play well, and that includes making thoughtful and deliberate decisions about which skills to level, and to what degree. Plenty of games out there for those who prefer to not pay a price for being mindless. Candy Crush perhaps would be a better fit for those folks?

    Pick better friends? :D No but seriously I think you've lost me. So you're out exploring/fighting with your friends and you die. I guess we're assuming you don't have enough XP in your pool to cover the loss from decay? And even then.. so what? You'd need to die something like 40 times in 40 days with 0 xp gain in the interim to have a skill fall back one level. And even then it would be only a tiny fraction less effective than it was before. It's not like having some skill loss would suddenly make your character unviable.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
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