Random Discussion About Chris' Daily Blog

Discussion in 'Developer Depot' started by Chris, Apr 5, 2017.

  1. Synergy Blaize

    Synergy Blaize Avatar

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    YES!
    I built a maze house in UO for a Guild quest, that had deceptive floors & dead-ends. There was only one way/path to complete the "quest"/maze.
    I had a ball creating it & then watching the Guildies get detoured by the "traps".
    It was a one hit wonder, but was enjoyed by all.
     
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  2. FrostII

    FrostII Avatar

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    @Chris
    In your blog today you said:
    When you say "UT is better this release but still a little too good", could you expound a bit on what you mean by "a little too good" ?

    Is it "too good" because it is so popular - like the monkeys used to be ?
    (Yes, you "fixed" the monkeys, and now it's a dead zone......)
    Was that your intention ?

    Are people getting too much experience in UT ? Is that your concern ?

    Will you make it sufficiently difficult that people won't aggregate there anymore ?

    You may not believe this, but I'm on your side, Chris !

    Please consider that double xp's and UT have kept people playing, joining groups with people they've never fought with before, and having fun raising their characters.

    UT is a place where my guild can go and take our "newer" players to get the xp's to make them stronger.

    Why is that a problem ???

    On the one hand, you give us the carrot with double xp's, and then when we find a good place to take advantage of that - you apparently think that it is - "too good".....
    This baffles me.

    Here's what everyone I know says we need about now:

    We need MORE spawns like UT - so we do not become bored by having only one place to maximize our efforts.
    We have only so much time to play each day, and naturally gravitate to the most efficient place to advance our characters.

    I plead with you to NOT nerf UT - like you did with the monkeys.
    It's fine like it is.

    Instead, give us more places like UT - where we can maximize our efforts.
    More variety - so we all don't need to congregate in one spot - like UT is now.

    Please, please....... I beseech you to rethink this. ;)
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
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  3. Synergy Blaize

    Synergy Blaize Avatar

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    @Chris Please read this & take note.
    I recognize you are all about balancing, but I can honestly say, that unless more zones like UT are created, where players can socialize & group together, working for the common goal, I will have less reason to even bother logging in.

    I don't solo, I want to group, I do like predictability, so the group has a chance to survive & I dont want to get dizzy, running from room to room in the Rise, to be in a group.

    Have you monitored what grouping is offered on LFG?
    95% of the LFG's are UT.
    Surely whilst wielding your "balancing" baseball bat, you could consider the importance of getting people together to have fun?
    Without considering the social aspect, you may well lose more players, who log in for it.
     
  4. Steevodeevo

    Steevodeevo Avatar

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    .... On the other hand I never go to UT. I did a few times when it first opened and, for me, found it extremely boring. Everyone just seems to stand around, casting aoe, heals, and buffs and soaking up insane experience.

    Social? I walked in got grabbed by a Pug group and socially that was the end of it. Chatting, apart from a few idiots abusing other players for not doing what they wanted them to do it was silence. I suppose I can see it could be a good alt trash talk location for friends as they stand around absorbing exp.

    UT seems to serve one purpose only, that is to soak up insane levels of experience for those that like to stand around and .. soak up insane amounts of experience.

    I'm terms of fun, gameplay, lore, effort, reward, it offers close to zero.

    I'm not 'dissing' those that like UT, each to their own, I just thought the posts in response to Chris increasing mob difficulty to tweak it were a bit dramatic, overstated and a little threatening. For me, it could be ditched altogether, I'm happy to level at a gentler pace while I enjoy richer more fun content.


    I do agree that more group instances with smart spawns, clever event triggers and a real purpose, challenge and objective to the gameplay would be awesome.
     
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  5. Chris

    Chris Tech Lord SOTA Developer

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    Too good meaning players pend more time there, earn more experience there, gain more gold there per hour than any other scene while at the same time having a very low death rate. Whatever scene that has the highest reward to risk ratio will always be popular but is it fun or is it just people grinding for rewards? UT is probably some of both but it is still out of whack on risk vs rewards and we're essentially forcing many players to play there even though they don't enjoy it.
     
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  6. Synergy Blaize

    Synergy Blaize Avatar

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    You should see some of the suicide PUG's groups I have joined & left.
    With the last changes implemented, without a tank, good dps & a dedicated healer.... it's "Goodnight Irene" for everyone.
    Maybe it's just that some don't realise, that you upped the ante with last UT update, or maybe it is that some they think the healer can keep everyone alive to cover inept their gameplay, is subjective.
     
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  7. FrostII

    FrostII Avatar

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    Then don't nerf it, build more scenes like it and people won't be "forced" to play there.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
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  8. Synergy Blaize

    Synergy Blaize Avatar

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    Alas, I have also had the misfortune of grouping with some "dictators".

    But I disagree with you entirely about the social aspect.
    There is no time to chat whilst the rounds are occurring, the chat/social aspect is in the tunnel between sessions or waiting to re-group after players have logged out.
    Also, having someone "whisper" to you to join a group is very satisfying & validates your worth to a group.

    As for you saying "it could be ditched all together" is your personal opinion, (which you are entitled to) related to what you deem as fun & suits your playstyle.

    We all seek different things & I recognize that the developers need to "balance" all aspects of the game, I implore them to consider the social aspect that is key to an MMO.
    If I didn't want to interact with others, I could go private mode or play the game offline, but I am here to play an MMO, which in it's name implies "with others".
     
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  9. FrostII

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    What difference does it make if people are attracted to it for whatever reason - as long as they stay in game playing?
    Taking it away via nerf, will make less people attracted to play - period .

    I mean, c'mon Chris.... stop nerfing what people enjoy.
    Make more UT's and people will have more places to go to for fun, groups and xp's...

    Please ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
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  10. Vero

    Vero Avatar

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    "earn more experience there, gain more gold there per hour than any other scene while at the same time having a very low death rate"

    Totally needs some nerfing! But lowering loot (again) would solve allot already :). Xp-wise we have attunation in place for this 'exteme xp gain' right?

    Like @Synergy Blaize said: UT since last change has gotten allot harder for lots of players. Making mobs tougher (even a little) will just mean UT will become a no-go zone for some of players who are really being able to catch-up now.

    Now to be totally honest here from my own perspective; high players (i take myself as an example here) solo Tears.. (or DUO, at least a small group most of the times when we dont run big groups) Is the big issue not coming from these players? instead of groups?

    I think this will hurt the PUG's / avarage players again harder then the higher-end players who just adapt to tougher mobs and keep doing what we are doing ;)

    Nerf the loot tables hell yeah!
    Nerf the whole scene for groups no!

    :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
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  11. Bayard

    Bayard Avatar

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    Does it matter as long as they are playing? :p

    One person's fun is another's grind and vice versa.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
  12. oplek

    oplek Avatar

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    Why should they have to put in substantially more work for the same outcome? Instead of fixing one thing, you're asking them to fix multiple... and not just fix, but develop whole new scenes. I trust they'll make the wise choice here.
     
  13. Chris

    Chris Tech Lord SOTA Developer

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    I think this shows a lack of understanding of things which probably contributes to your frustration with some of our design changes. Please read the following carefully.

    If you have one scene that gives better rewards, has less risk, but is boring and tedious as hell, players will still make themselves play there even though they hate it. They will skip the fun or interesting scene just because the reward isn't as good. That is the problem with unbalanced stuff, players gravitate towards it even if they don't enjoy it. Same issue is visible in all aspects of game design.

    For example, I see people all the time saying things like, "I want to be bludgeon hand heavy armor but currently blade and light armor is better so I'm playing that." That doesn't mean that blade is more fun, it just means that when things are dramatically unbalanced and they feel like they are being punished for using what they really want to use. Same with scenes, you want to go crawl through a more interesting dungeon but feel like you're punished for it because you could be earning more in UT or before that the monkey room or the lich cycle.

    The negative way to look at it is that I'm ruining the most popular scene. The reality though is we're making it possible for players to choose where they want to play without feeling punished. It doesn't have to be perfectly balanced either and it will still likely have a good risk vs reward but it needs to be close enough to other scenes where people feel they don't HAVE to play in UT 24/7.

    Again, what I plan on doing for UT is just make the creatures a bit tougher but with the same rewards. The bottom line is that the scene should never have gone live as it is and in the future I will be far more proactive in fixing scene based balance issues quicker. Previously I avoided doing it because there were some people who got touchy when I got into level stuff but that is no longer an issue.
     
  14. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    @Chris Great video! Any chance we're going to see a sneak peek video of the construction system being used to build something?
     
  15. Oakenhammer

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    In an expansion of the dungeon system, could we explore finer settings for difficulty? I would love the ability to set difficulty on a per encounter room or floor level so that we could build a dungeon that gets more difficult the farther in the player goes. That would allow us to make a dungeon that could be enjoyed by players of all levels.
     
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  16. Lained

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    @Oakenhammer sounds like the current direction is a per room basis, from Discord earlier:
     
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  17. Armeleon Vesaz

    Armeleon Vesaz Avatar

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    This is all true but I don't think you're looking at psychology of this realistically. The phenom I think you're forgetting is a very strong psychological effect of getting used to being rewarded at a certain level. While the phenom you describe is real and some player will spread out to do other things (the intended goal), many others will simply feel like nothing is worth doing anymore and stop logging in entirely, atleast for a while. This goes to nerfing builds, zones, gear etc etc.

    None of this is black and white but I can't help getting the impression from some of your communication that you sometimes underestimate what this sort of frustration actually results in. I might be wrong, maybe you'v looked at the data and concluded this doesn't really happen but this side of things is almost never covered when you discuss these things on the live streams etc.

    Just to re-iterate, I don't think most of the nerfs are objectively bad. That being said, I do think some of them achieve a net negative for the game overall.

    As to UT specifically, the original iteration was way too good and it had to be nerfed. The zone also has BIG upsides (that still exist) as in really encouraging grouping and especially grouping with people you don't necessarily know in the game. I can't think of another adventure zone in the game that really achieves this, maybe Lost Vale but only kinda sorta because of the time gating. I would really hate to see it nerfed to the point where this up side no longer exists and the game is basically left with no zones that actually encourage grouping with friends and stragers alike.

    (just as an aside, for example the boosted zones in the Hidden Vale in general don't have enough spawns and exp to encourage grouping. I hope to see some of this tweaked in the future, as I think encouraging group play in the game design is incredibly important for the long term health of the game.)
     
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  18. Magnus Zarwaddim

    Magnus Zarwaddim Avatar

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    Agreed, and with that maybe monkeys can become relevant again as another option!
     
  19. Barugon

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    @Chris
    Can you talk a bit about the upcoming decay changes?
     
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  20. Vladamir Begemot

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    You need UT style wave battles for all levels, maybe even in the starter zones (geared towards solo play). If the danger needs to be increased, so be it, but the play style is fun and needs to be duplicated. It also needs to be not OP, as you said.

    So ideally me, a level 80, would jump into the level 80 version of UT, play until attenuation, and then go somewhere else fun and rewarding.

    The ggameplay experience should be duplicated across the land, with it's own adaption per area / enemy type.