Random Discussion About Chris' Daily Blog

Discussion in 'Developer Depot' started by Chris, Apr 5, 2017.

  1. Lesni

    Lesni Avatar

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    I was not going to post here because it falls on deaf ears but hopefully you want to understand?
    In the quote below you seem to think players are being 'punished' for not using the 'fun' weapons.

    Let me give an example:
    I have a beautiful sword
    I am skilled at using it and can inflict significant damage or death to any attacker with this weapon.
    I love using it and practicing with it and training with it.
    It is FUN!
    However, if I was being attacked by a group of thugs, should I... "be punished for using what I really want to use".

    I can say without hesitation, given a real life fight, I would choose my 45 pistol EVERY TIME over the sword. (even though it is not as much fun to use, but... I WIN the fight)
    It is best to use the weapon that is best suited for the job instead of what is the most fun.
    Let us have FUN and stop nerfing our gun!



    I must be one of the 'some people'. But now I see that it is no longer an issue so that could only mean you are going to do it anyway. I can only hope you understand what you are doing before you completely destroy the game.
     
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  2. Gamician

    Gamician Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    Great Post Frost. Every time an area comes up that is actually fun for the players as a group and allows us to train others in our Guild, it gets nerfed and then we no longer do it at all. For years we have lived with a system of destroying any fun areas while continuously preaching how we as players have got to suffer and die more often losing more and more experience points because having fun is not part of what this game is about. I agree with you whole heartedly that instead of destroying areas that are fun and exciting for the players, increase the number of areas that give different and varying challenges.
     
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  3. marthos

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    Chris, I don't know a nice way to put this, but risk vs reward is entirely screwed up in this game.

    Why the heck does a handful of 1,000 health skeletons drop FAR better loot than 2000 health trolls or a 10k health Cabalist? Killing a 10k boss Cabalist drops 14 gold, 1 mandrake root, and a carrot. Killing an elite skeleton drops 40 gold, a weapon, corpse wax, and seems to have the same chance to drop supply bundles as bosses. I can run around in the ruined keep killing 9k trolls for 2 hours and get less loot than 30 minutes killing elite skeletons in UT. The same is true with experience points, mainly because the bosses respawn so slowly compare to fast spawning elites.

    It's very bizarre that "trash mobs" have been the go-to for farming for ages (Ravenswood spiders, Rise Mages, Monkey Room, UT, etc) and bosses, while more fun, are not the main draw of the game. This is because your risk vs reward balance has never been fixed to properly reward players for completing harder content. You're pushing us into farming trash if we want to progress effectively. Flip it around please.
     
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  4. FrostII

    FrostII Avatar

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    Oh, as in - make the reward worth the time and effort ? ;)
     
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  5. GrayFog

    GrayFog Avatar

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    I see, nothing has changed there still, sad :/
     
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  6. Steevodeevo

    Steevodeevo Avatar

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    We're recycling old topics again

    I believe the reason for this is so that all players at all levels can earn gold and drops fairly equally.

    I believe it has been strongly speculated that the Devs, along with a great many other innovative ideas, want to avoid higher level players becoming insanely rich and gold becoming totally meaningless. Higher level players can still make more gold as they can farm lower level mobs more efficiently. Higher level mobs being for farming experience.

    I think there has also been some thought, (not sure if Chris has acknowledged this, but it rings a bell), that some kind of unique trophy reward or rare material could be a future option for Bosses or high level mobs to bring a greater sense of achievement to simple satisfaction of defeating the mob, competing the quest and gaining the exp. The rare material or trophy would be valuable but not economy imbalancing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
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  7. Aartemis

    Aartemis Avatar

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    @Chris

    So far loving all the Dungeon stuff. Question though, when you look at the sizes of properties (and cost). I think the point numbers seem a little off. A village lot is four times the size of a row, yet for the upgrade cost, you only have a 25 point difference in dungeon size? Then we jump to a town lot which is double the size and significant cost upgrade and again, the same 25 point difference in upgrade?

    I am not trying to say they should all be bigger or smaller, but I think the point difference should reflect the gap difference ratio seen through the size and cost ratio's of the upgrades, don't you think that is better balance?
     
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  8. Aartemis

    Aartemis Avatar

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    @Chris

    "Difficulty of spawns is being discussed. Expecting it to be customizable difficulty. Not entirely sure of the interface yet though. Might be as easy as an option you choose when the dungeon is in deco mode through the hatch interface. Something simple like a choice between Easy, medium, hard, or lethal. Another option we've discussed is making it so each respawn of the creatures in it gets progressively tougher."

    I hope that the difficulty of the dungeon is not locked only to the entire dungeon as a whole. It would be nice if rooms or encounters could be scaled to be easier or harder in different places of the dungeon. I have always like the idea of creating a large difficult room you need a group to clear and get through (as a short cut to lower levels) or a long and winding path of smaller encounters you could do solo, or a group of two, that get you to the same spot, eventually. Higher risk, faster travel to the lowest levels and bigger rewards.

    Another thing that I liked (an miss) from other games, would be the ability to fight around in lower level areas, but then as others arrive, grouping up to taking harder content lower down (without relocating to a new zone). When everything in the dungeon is essentially the same level, you don't get that feeling of "oh, I can here until others come and still get something done".

    So, long story short, hopefully the room themselves have a difficulty setting on them as well as the entire dungeon. Maybe a 5 tick rocker that could set the room 2 notches harder or 2 notches easier or right even to the level set on the dungeon?

    Keep up the great work on this!
     
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  9. Cryodacry

    Cryodacry Avatar

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    Also @Chris I would suggest capping the price that coto's cost per a dungeon expansion. Say it Caps at 2 per a unit. This would give an incentive to Use COTO's and pull more coto's out of the system. Basically Make it parallel to how the bank upgrades work ? Like how a bank upgrade will always cost $5 USD while gold value will continue to inflate. I see this being the better means for people to get around the restrictions of their lot size. Also i am in agreement over your Lot size issues.

    Personally i think Row lots have a 0 for their base size. I am sorry but they are packed in there like sardines at times. It just doesn't make sense. Now it can be added too in order to create a dungeon so that it's not a barrier into entry of Dungeons. I just feel it should be a bit more effort. Maybe the following Sizes.

    Row = 0
    Village = 50
    Town = 100
    City = 200
    Keep = 300
    Castle = 400.

    With the limited number of Keep and Castles i don't see them having an exorbitantly high Dungeon size affecting things. This basically makes it so anyone can get into Dungeons but if your wanting to make a Castle sized Dungeon under your Row you'll be coughing up a lot more to do it.
     
  10. Cryodacry

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    I appreciate your idea of locking the difficulty to the rooms but there is one major problem to this. The XP value of resource nodes given. It would be just a lot easier on chris if you could assign tier value say 1-10 on the Entrance. Once assigned the game knows what type of NPC's to plug in each encounter.... Weather it's Kobald Brawlers or Sentries.

    It's an interesting idea but due to simplicity reasons i think chris is on the right track.
     
  11. Aartemis

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    I suppose, but if X is what you base difficulty on, then setting X on the dungeon and Y on the room as a modifier +/- does not seem too Difficult. :D I have faith what I ask is not overly complicated to a math scholar like Chris. Still, Cheers on your comment - and thanks for chiming in! I love hearing opinions.
     
  12. redfish

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    @Chris

    Also keep in mind some of us might want to use dungeon construction to just create custom basements for things like quests, and may or may not want monsters to inhabit them. The add-on basements from the store are limited, and the dungeon construction set gives us more possibilities.

    So for instance, I might want to create a catacombs or crypt basement, just to send players down there to look for clues about the history of the POT or find a certain body which has a note on it, or a key on it. Now, a natural thing for a crypt might be to have some ghosts and such, but I might choose not to want any of that and just want a monster and treasure -free basement.
     
  13. ErikRulez

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    I can see a lot of huge basements going up (or down?). Maybe an option to make non-combatant mobs would help with the story telling and things like your history quest. They could talk to the ghost of a towns person to help them along.
     
  14. Elrond

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    And cellars ... my first dungeon will probably be storage area for whisky casks so hope we dont get only tunnels but also big large rooms .:)
     
  15. Cora Cuz'avich

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    It sounds like that would be pretty easy to do, you just wouldn't use any of the "encounter" rooms, and not place any spawners. (If spawners outside of encounter rooms are a thing.) It sounds like you'd still be able to build whatever you want; Chris mentioned in the livestream that he expects most dungeons will be in the form of custom built basements, and not adventuring areas.
     
  16. Chris

    Chris Tech Lord Moderator SOTA Developer

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    Not going to bother responding to bad logic or negative and hyperbolic statements. Weapons need to be balanced, risk vs reward needs to be balance for the medium and long term health of the game. I'm responsible for most of the combat balance and I believe it gets a little better each release.

    I'm going to be taking a much more active hand at balancing game content going forward. Step one though is you guys need more content that is challenging and rewarding. Right now there are only a few scenes worth adventuring in for high level people, UT being one of them. I can talk about balancing UT all day but until there are more scenes at equal difficulty, I don't even have a solid benchmark to measure risk vs reward against.

    Onto a more positive topic, I'll be doing a short video today with a 5 minute braindump on dungeon stuff. A lot of it will be just a summary of stuff in my blog but I'll talk a bit more about how players will be able to be leveled up to be more difficult as well.
     
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  17. Cryodacry

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    @Chris

    I think you hit a great sweet spot with UT in regards to the balance of NPC types. It has the right mix of Mages / Melee's / Archers to really keep things lively.

    I would suggest re-evaluating some of the most difficult camps in the game. One being the Lich encounter in the Rise. This is an easy one to balance as the Challenge is fine but the XP reward needs to be re-assesed.

    Anouther good one would be the Monkey room in K'rul. This was the best spot for a long time but how about adding more NPC's to the spawn ? go 2 monkeys / 3 monkeys / 4 monkeys ?

    Ruined keep is actually really nice ... I would side on the Satyrs not giving enough xp though. For how much HP they have they give very little xp.

    Making a Open version of the solo instance neark Skrekk would be an easy one. Just increase the spawn density of the existing Kobalds. Death mages really need a place to hunt again. Death magic has been shunted out of the higher difficulties. This is Mostly thanks to @Mac2 who ironicly does not even use death magic anymore.

    Upgrading Hillside fortress would be interesting also. A lot of places could be upgraded if they were able to be in Open instead of just being Private instances.

    I understand the concept of the xp bonus for open play but it hurts the viability of locations in the game. If any instances in the game are private they automatically are 10 % less attractive than anywhere else in the game. Making everywhere available for the Open XP bonus or just getting rid of the bonus and making everything 10 % more xp would probably be good. This would open up a lot of areas like the bottom of Serpents Spine . One of the reasons why the bottom of Serpents spine isn't competitive is because of the 10 % xp penalty due to it being a private instance always. It's a really cool zone and a fun puzzle to get to the bottom. Places like this are just Lost in the game because they are inherently not worth persueing. Spectral Foothills is the same ... Most people don't even know that there is a dungeon portion of the mine. There is a whole zone there that just gets overlooked because it's not worth the xp.

    You have cool areas in the game that are really worth the attention but the mechanics you have in place to encourage playing in open Hamstring your options.
     
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  18. Mac2

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    The death nerfs were only partly my fault, but the dynamic cooldowns, ya, you can all blame me for that :( .
     
  19. nonaware

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    how long it took to fix some of the experience faucets and unintended effects/exploits since persistence really hurt the health of the game and are a large part of why we find ourselves where we are imo.

    things like early control point farming and some exploits from cps and the rise that lasted for more than one or 2 releases allowed players to become comfortable and accustomed to certain speeds of progress and levels of power. this followed by hard nerfs long after many people had been doing it lead to people being upset about the drastic change in progression speed and power for them. that in turn helped foster the flavor of the month build mentality that many fell into chasing the best builds before they were balanced out then becoming angry after the nerf/balance reduced their power.

    this has lead to many people leaving in frustration.

    I much prefer your recent trend of coming down hard on things then letting up rather than a slow down grade in power. more info coming from you and darkstarr has helped this in my mind even if I don't agree or see it as a problem the same way as you. knowing your thoughts has lead to less frustration.
     
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  20. Cryodacry

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    Also @Chris I think you should come forward to the community on where you feel a player should be able to attenuate. What a solo player should be able to Accomplish the max xp an hour. It just feels like you are trying to balance around what the high level players who can trivialize content. This is just going to hurt the community as a whole as a hole. For instance ... @Mac2 loves helping other people out. He's more than willing to have other people join him when he goes for a UT attenuation. This is mainly because Mac does the damage of roughly 6 normal people. This is because he's pushing 160 base attunment on his major trees. How do you balance content around people that represent .001% of your player base? Coming forward and saying that UT is designed for a group of 8 players around 90 to attenuate would give a great baseline of expectation.

    The community as a whole feels that UT has hit close to that balance... The problem is what ever you create for groups to attenuate on ... Say you nerf UT by 20 % ... that means only high level players will do it in groups of 4 instead of 8 ... The high level players have no whims about bringing along low level players now because it's easy to attenuate and carry other people along for the ride. I can only see this hurting the community as groups will have lower counts which means less people and more frustration. Grouping and encouraging grouping has really brought new life into SotA. This is a baby fire that needs to be fostered. When i run UT groups in Party i already limit the parties to 6 ... 8 in Open.
     
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