Random Discussion About Chris' Daily Blog

Discussion in 'Developer Depot' started by Chris, Apr 5, 2017.

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  1. Calem

    Calem Avatar

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    Honestly, people going to work and sleeping is not an extreme case, it's the norm for an adult audience. Your system is set up to actively dis-incentivize casual play by front-loading penalties for this quite major group which also happens to have cash to spend as a result of having to work. This whole thing ties into the higher-up design goal of player retention, which it exactly doesn't help with. Other games even actively reward casual players for hanging around despite being short on time, usually by giving them some type of daily 'roll for freebie' thing. SotA is the only MMO-type game I know which has it backwards, and its tech director actively defending it. Still, appreciate the dialogue. Thanks.
     
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  2. Lifedragn

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    The Sims works so well because it captures multiple crowds. I know just as many folks who cheat at it as those that don't. I know people who build up the entire neighborhoods with cheated families and houses and then watch to see how they interact and change. I know folks who play the game like I do, focusing on only one family and trying to build a dynasty through it. I've burned more hours than I'd care to admit on SimCity, SimFarm, and SimAnt as well. Man, I wish they'd bring back fun versions of the latter two. But it might be hard. TOO much simulation can suck the fun out. And those who want that degree of simulation already have Tractor Simulator... but woo, way off topic!
     
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  3. redfish

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    @Lifedragn

    I cheat, too, and focus on modding and creative play when I'm in the mood for that. But I'd still argue that kind of gameplay isn't long lasting... you get pretty bored of it... and the sim aspects remove the staleness, because you can always turn your creative work into real gameplay. With SimCity, I've also just cheated and gone into design mode and made custom cities, some based on real life, and played around treating it as a sandbox. But its also much better and much more fun to see your city come to life under the constraints of a real sim.

    SimCity gameplay I also find is more fun the more detail and management they put in; like SimCity 4 was much better with the Rush Hour expansion pack. And I think its the same with TheSims, too.
     
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  4. Scoffer

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    @Chris
    Are you guys planning on changing skill decay, the way combat works (heat system?) and reduce how much hp players have all in one patch with minimal testing?
     
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  5. Chris

    Chris Tech Lord Moderator SOTA Developer Ambassador

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    Are you new here? The changes this release are actually minor compared to most. The only thing different this release is I'm making a blog. The decay changes reduce the penalty from the current release so not sure how you think it could be risky. The hit point change is also fairly minor, does the same thing to creatures (they lose hps), and is very contained and safe and long discussed. The heat system is new and is scary and it will need balancing. I'm just now trying it myself and I can already tell it is going to need some


    Just to be clear, exactly 3 players have hit 110 to this date and I haven't heard a single peep of complain about decay from those guys. I verified that they die and suffer decay and even verified that the top player in the game died more than 30 times in the past month.


    Guys, I know you have concerns but decay is a dead horse at this point. I know there are flaws in the current system but there are flaws in any system. The difference in penalty between people who play single long sessions vs one big one is less than 50% with the changes for R42 and that is only even that bad with the worst case type scenarios.

    I also have seen zero workable solutions for something better. No, we're not going to do hard caps and many if not most players don't want that. The decay while you play was my idea and it doesn't work. It works great in tiny we just started playing examples but when applied to our existing users would being incredibly punishing to the hardcore. If you have a better idea, write it up, give me examples and send it to me privately.

    AGAIN, ANY MORE POSTS HERE ON DECAY ARE GOING TO BE DELETED.
     
  6. Oba Evesor

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    @Chris, so because the 1 skill I'm taking to 120 (INT) costs more than most trees to GM I'm going to pay as a high price as guys with dozens of GM's?
    Most skills at 80, 4 GM's (2 crafting).
    I lose maybe 90-100k right now. Not that bad.
    But now INT is gonna kill me?
    feelsbadman


    still gonna do it tho.
     
  7. Umuri

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    I think this is a misunderstanding.
    The decay for that ONE skill will be at the 120 rate. Your skills at 80 will decay at the 80 rate. Your skills at 40 will decay at the 40 rate.
     
  8. Oba Evesor

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    Without giving away too much (no names or whatever) how many of those guys are being 'brought into line' by decay? How many GMs have been lost (and not regained) due to decay deaths?
     
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  9. Oba Evesor

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    right, but isnt decay is based on XP spent. So doesnt the cost of the skill matter? I could be wrong. Havent really thought this thru. :p
     
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  10. Evilgamer

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    @Chris its difficult to propose a "better system for" without understanding what comes after the "for". That is, what purpose the current system of death penalty that increases as your character advances was designed to accomplish.

    if you haven't noticed, I can theorycraft pretty well, but without knowing the goals (and perhaps limitations/untouchables) thats difficult.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
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  11. Scoffer

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    The risk would be in the number of "bug reports" posted complaining about loss of xp due to death. People won't reliably be able to tell you if they are dying more because their hp were reduced, the combat system was changed and people are getting used to the new system and skill decay will be more apparent as I'm assuming there will be more deaths while we get used to it again.

    There was no need for the hostility, I was just asking the question if everything that has been discussed this week was still planned for R43.
     
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  12. Jaanelle DeJure

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    I also kind of like the idea of opposing school negative attunement. It seems more balanced over all if, as you say, getting the earth innate bonus involves a sacrifice in air attunement.

    However, one thing I've been doing (which I find a lot of fun) is to swap between two decks, each using four of the schools. I call them "Light Jaan" (Earth, Water, Sun, Life) and "Dark Jaan" (Air, Fire, Moon, Death). I've even created some personal lore around it. ;)

    I think I would feel a bit bummed if I had to permanently choose between opposing schools.

    BUT... what if there were some kind of limitation to the number of different magic schools can be "active" per deck? And then only the innates which correspond to the "active" schools get applied while that deck is equipped?
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
  13. Chris

    Chris Tech Lord Moderator SOTA Developer Ambassador

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    Apologies if that sounded hostile but my frustration of dealing with decay spilled over.

    Seriously though, we have far fewer risky things going in this release than most. The "heat system on locked skills is the one that scares me right now. I know I have a number of things to change on it because right now I'm easily able surpass any previous builds.
     
  14. Oba Evesor

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    opposing schools didnt work well. you get a 100lvl Earth Mage vs. an equally leveled Air Mage and its a race to see who can get off the first shot.
    Guys would hit each other for like 600DMG.
     
  15. kaeshiva

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    Maybe look at this another way.
    The objective of this decay system was supposed to stop people from GMing every skill.
    It doesn't do that. You could grind greens for months with little risk to self and GM every skill. If you're high enough lvl to survive it, you can grind harder stuff and GM every skill faster.
    The "3 people who have hit 110" have invested tremendous amounts of grind time into the game - while decay sucks for them as much as it does for the rest of us, they can grind through it because they're grinding that much anyway.
    At some point, there will be an Equalization, at which point everything you grind isn't enough to balance everything you lose. Why would you play a game in which you could no longer progress or which you'd essentially pay xp tax for doing anything?

    Want to stop people from GMing every skill?
    • Incentivize specialization - special abilities? Titles? Commemorative cloaks/plaques? Bonus transfer rate in high invested trees?
    • Reorganise skill trees so that needed skills and attunements dont FORCE people to GM stuff they'd never use simply for attunement purposes. I have never once summoned an elemental to do anything for me other than look pretty, but I have had to invest loads of xp into them for attunement. And then I'm punished for investing xp. This is counter intuitive. I've got at lesat 20 skills at 80 that I would happily reduce to 0 if I didn't need them for attunement.
    • Consider removing 'base stats' from their current trees and putting them somewhere separate, giving players something to invest in that would be 'safe' so to still see progress on their character without spreading out across too many skills, which apparently is the issue you're trying to fix

    There's more than one way to stop a bucket from overflowing.
    Currently, we've poked a hole in the bottom but we could just as easily turn off/slow down the tap, or get a bigger bucket, or put some things into a different bucket.

    You want people to play the game for years right? Stick around, keep developing our characters, keep buying things, right? Then give us a reason to - don't hamper growth and progress.
     
  16. HogwinHD

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    Just to point out Chris, there are 5 of us :)

    And FYI, im raging about decay,
     
  17. Ravicus Domdred

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    Get In MY BELLY!
    I was wondering why they got rid of it. I really liked the idea but never got to the level to have it useful. I liked it because it made somewhat of a class system but I see how it would be bad in combat as you pointed out.
     
  18. Time Lord

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    [​IMG]

    I use a "Dallas Deck" and I don't ever want any locked deck to ever be as competitive as a random one. The only thing I ever wish for, is the ability to have combos randomly come available automatically.
    The Random Deck Must Rule! The moment some duffer like me becomes competitive using a locked deck, is the moment that there's something wrong with our game.
    ~Time Lord~o_O
     
  19. Mac2

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    I suspect there will be a lot of people putting skills to 99. I am not going to, I like to help people and being able to mentor them is very helpful. As for my skills that are 120, might dial those down to 119.
     
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  20. Chris

    Chris Tech Lord Moderator SOTA Developer Ambassador

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    You are correct about the 5 thing. Hey, you never your raged to me about it! If you had I would have told you, "HOLY **** DUDE, you kill me 9 out of 10 times and you're mad there is a system in place to help curb your power!" :O Seriously, how many of my skulls do you have!

    BTW, you are pretty much the guy this system is also designed to help. You are one of the guys I point to when I tell people that player skill matters more than skill levels! You can hate on decay but I also know you're still going to be winning half the PVP tournaments even if you dropped your skills by 20 points.



    So since I haven't put it in this thread lately, just to be clear. The purpose of the decay system it help curb players at extremely high skill levels.

    The system is doing exactly what it was intended to do. It is letting players level skills as high as they want to BUT in return making death more and more punishing the higher you level them.
     
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